Episode 5 - Protecting Children from the Harmful Legacy of Dr. Dobson with D.L. Mayfield

Flo

00:18

Welcome to Blessed Uncertainty, where faith is a wide and wandering path. Today's episode is

a heavier one. This episode was recorded on February 11th, just days after it was revealed that

some of the abusers in the Epstein files shared James Dobson's parenting advice for

controlling their victims. Again, today is heavy. We will talk about corporal punishment and

abuse, and while we don't go into detailed descriptions about sexual abuse, it is referenced. So

take care of yourselves however you need it. But I would urge you, if you are an adult who has

the privilege to listen, especially if you are someone who has not experienced abuse, please,

please, please do not look away. Children cannot speak or advocate for themselves. It is entirely

our moral responsibility to do so. And as James Baldwin says, the children are always ours,

every single one of them, all over the globe. And I am beginning to suspect that whoever is

incapable of recognizing this may be incapable of morality. Thanks for listening today. Hello and

welcome to Blessed Uncertainty and welcome to our guest today, D.L. Mayfield, they them

pronouns, who is an amazing author, podcaster, works in the areas of exposing trauma of high

control religion and especially how that affects children and vulnerable people. We're just really

happy to have you on our show today. Thank you for joining us.

D.L.

02:46

Thank you so much.

Danny

02:48

Thank you.

Flo

02:50And we'll, again, put this in our intro, but this episode is coming out right amidst the Epstein

files and all of the abuse that's being uncovered that we know has been happening in the world

and how related that is to evangelicalism and James Dobson and religion and all of those places

that we're going to be doing. it's all the same insidious evil. And so I've really respected your

work and your commitment to telling the truth. I think that's something I told Danny when we

were excited about having you on, is that there are a lot of people, I think, in the space where

they ar critiquing the church in very, very correct and needed necessary ways. But sometimes I

feel like some of those podcasts can feel like a brand and like a grift, like, oh, we used to be like

the progressive Christian ex-vangelical grift. And I, what I appreciate, what I've appreciated so

much about watching your journey is to see you follow the thread of truth, like at any cost. Andeven when it's painful, no matter where that leads you, even out of Christianity, like whatever

that means, you're following the thread. the, um, your integrity and the truth and exposing that.

And so I think that's so necessary right now and important to have, um, have your voice in this

conversation. And this season of our very first baby podcast is on children's spirituality

because there is a, um, my work is with children and, um, about recognizing the innate

spirituality that does not have to be Christian spirituality. It's just innate connection that children

have to something bigger than themselves and how, um, how to foster that and nurture that in

healthy, non-harmful ways. And the ethics, my, um, my background is the ethics around that.

And so your voice in this conversation, um, is just very needed and we're excited to have you

speak to that today.

D.L.

05:03

Thank you so much. I'm glad you mentioned the ex-evangelical grift because it's real. My

advice is look for the weirdos. Look for the weirdos who just keep saying their stuff no matter

how many people listens to it you know I'm like that's kind of more where I'm at and same you

know kind of back to you it's like I came out of being heavily indoctrinated and spiritually

abused as a child I was a Christian publisher I was a Christian missionary I did all this stuff and

now that I'm not a Christian I obviously have a lot of anger and feelings to process but I'm also

just so amazed at Christians who are open to an interfaith and pluralistic world and to not

indoctrinating their children and letting the chips fall where they may. And I just think that this

has to be a part of our future. You know, this has to be. So, you know, I'm really glad to be here.

Yeah. Yeah.

Flo

06:07

We are, I think we're just going to have a great conversation. Oh, Danny, were you going to say

something?

Danny

06:12

No, I was, yeah, just, no, I had just a lot of jokes about my own formation here that I'm just, I'm

sure it will come up.

Flo

06:22

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, it will probably come up. I wondered if we could just start with your work

in the Stronghold project and like what that is and where that came from and what...

D.L.

06:35

Yeah. Okay. So I've been asked this quite a bit in the past week. When did I start getting

obsessed with James Dobson, his parenting methods, all of that? And I had to think about it fora bit because Danny and I were just connecting over Dorothy Day. That was the last Book I

published was I did a biography of Dorothy Day, specifically how she started the Catholic

worker in 1933. She's an anti-fascist, anarchist, Catholic legend. You know, after that was

published, I left Christianity and then got really into fascism, studying fascism. I wonder why. I

wonder why. I mean, again, going back to Dorothy, it kind of gave me some permission to follow

those threads. And as I was reading books like the mass psychology of fascism, they kept

saying that the Nazis focused on the family and they focused on the heteronormative

patriarchal family.

Danny

07:24

Yeah.

D.L.

07:31

And if you can replicate those authoritarian patterns in the home, you can replicate those

patterns in the government. Right. And so I thought, oh, my God, this sounds like focus on the

family. But like, yeah. American fascism versus German Christian fascism. Both Christian. Both

were obsessed with controlling sexuality. And so it wasn't a very well I mean people aren't

reading this book anymore. It was published in 1933 The Mass Psychology of Fascism. But that

is really what got me started. And so our strong-willed project, my partner's a therapist, so he

was coming at it from more of like this standpoint of when I started rereading all these Dobson

parenting books. This is during a time, again, where all of the research was coming out that

corporal punishment and physical spanking was really harmful to a child's development. This is

Mr. Rogers. This is Eric Erickson. These are all these people flow that you probably are well

aware of. we need to go back right everybody's gay now or at least gay people gay people are

inching towards rights and also women were inching towards rights okay and dobson couldn't

have any of that and so he was like we gotta spank the babies we gotta view them as evil

manipulative defiant so one of to view their toddlers as their peer who is engaged in a battle for

salvation, right, of the world. And just think about that for a minute, Flo, just what it does to tell

parents, don't think about any developmental needs, don't think about any developmental

phases, these kids know what they're doing and they're asking for it. They're begging to be

spanked. That's what Dobson says.

Flo

10:05

And override your possible good intuition as a parent.

D.L.

10:09

right? Yeah, he said, and he said, if you don't spank them, you're not a good Christian. And his

works became so popular that if you went to church, and it didn't have to even be anevangelical church. It was so many different kinds of religious beliefs. groups that were

somehow centered around patriarchy in the United States. If you went to this church and your

toddler disobeyed you, everybody was watching and everybody was looking to see how you

responded because how your kids responded was a reflection of how much you yourself as a

parent We're committing to Christianity. So that's why we came up with the term religious

authoritarian parenting methods to describe Dobson and many others who came after him sort

of in the Christian publishing world, because for them, religion was such an important

component to getting people to implement these authoritarian style parenting methods. using

corporal punishment. So in the beginning, my thesis was just, okay, this is why we have Donald

Trump 2.0. I mean, you know, this is authoritarian parenting methods lead to authoritarianism in

society. And then eventually, just because I started researching all this stuff Dobbs had talked

about constantly, my thesis started to shift a little bit. And now I'm at the point where I'm like,

He also appears to have been making materials that appeal to abusive people in general and to

serial child predators in particular. So that's like where I'm at now. But most of the project

Strongwilled has been aimed at unpacking the history of Dobson, who formed him, including,

you know, he worked for 10 years with a very well-known white supremacist eugenicist known

as Paul Popenoe. And he actually started Focus on the Family based off of Popeno's

organization. That was a positive eugenics movement. So looking at the history and telling

people, if you grew up in these homes, you probably have some long-term impacts. That's what

my partner specializes in. Sort of like you probably have a hard time accessing self-

compassion. You probably have a hard time accessing autonomy. You probably, you know,

either have the fawn response around people in power or something, you know, and I'm more

looking at the history of where we got to where we're at. So that's sort of what the project is.

But mostly we want to help people, yeah, develop autonomy and find solidarity with each other

because so many of us. our parents, our church community, our faith community, the culture in

general is like, what? It wasn't a big deal. Everybody spanked their kids. This is not something

even worth talking about. And I think more and more people are starting to say like, actually,

what happens during those really formative years for a child is, It really matters both on an

individual level and for society as a whole. Sorry, I just rambled a bunch.

Flo

13:07No, that was like perfect. And I was going to say too, like the, when you go on your website,

your, your sub stack, there's also a list of chapters that, that are just so well-researched and

well-informed and so comprehensive. Like, I think it's such a deep dive, but like so good as far

as the information that's there. And I couldn't help. I was thinking as you were talking, yeah, I

was a child of the 80s. I was born in 1980. And, but my mom, who was like in a Baptist church,

but had been a... uh, had protested the Vietnam war. And like, she had been like in that group of

people and then came into this, like, like late in the game Christianity in her life. Um, and I was, I

was baby number five for her and she was, um, I was very stubborn was the word, but notstrong willed, but stubborn. And, um, but I, but this was other people. I remember, I was, I was,

but, um, but other people, my mom has all these stories. I'm very, this is a shout out to her. I'm

very grateful because this was the eighties and people in her church gave her the Dobson book

and said, you have to get it didn't stick. So I'm grateful for that. But I do remember the feeling

of the judgment. It's there. As a child, I clearly remember the other adults looking at me and

judging my mom. I remember that. I remember the judgment of her from the other adults. It was

real. It was real.

D.L.

15:22

Yeah, I think one thing that's interesting for me and my story is that I was like the golden child in

my family. I'm the middle of three and I never, I mean, I just took it all so seriously. I... . I believed

it all. And this is kind of common because that was the desired results from Dobson's particular

method. So he published his first parenting book called Dare to Discipline in 1970. And then he

wrote a follow up called The Strong-Willed Child, which was published in 1977. Now, what

happened in families that utilized Dobson methods, even if they didn't read the books, there

was like people are just talking about this. Maybe they said Stubborn Child. But maybe they

said strong willed child. The strong willed child was like the enemy in the family. Right. The kid

who just for whatever reason, Dobson's methods didn't quite work. Their spirit wasn't broken.

So you had to just try harder. And what what's really sad is when you go back and read the

book, The Strong Willed Child, you know, Like the first story he tells is about beating the shit

out of his little dog. He had like a little weird dog named after Sigmund Freud. And he talked

about getting,

Danny

16:36

you can't make it up.

D.L.

16:38And he's like, and we had this battle. He had his belt. He's just beaten. Then the dog obeyed

him every day. since and he was like and this is why I'm qualified to write this book and so I

think we give people a lot of like a pass like oh it was the 70s it was the 80s it was the 90s but

I'm like the story starts off with him beating a tiny dog and what kind of person does this I just

found this New York Times article that was sort of talking about um how people weren't really

taking evangelical media seriously for how kind of deranged it is. And this was in like the 1990s

when the apocalypse panic was starting to really ramp up. And this guy who actually wrote a

book on thought reform or mind control named Robert J. Lupton, he was writing about...

Dobson and authors like Frank Peretti. And he said, when you look at these materials, like

Dobson is just a sadist. He's just a sadist. And all these people are listening to him. What does

this mean? And I'm like, thank you. That's how I feel now. But that's not what most people were

saying. about him.Flo

17:47

No. Danny and I talk all the time about, yeah, the masochistic nature of evangelicalism.

Danny

17:56

And I think it's a shame addiction.

Flo

18:00

Yes.

Danny

18:01

As I work with people that like who begin to distrust me as a pastor, it's when I don't shame

them or the ones they want shamed.

D.L.

18:13

Yeah.

Danny

18:14

And it's like a, it is like an addict who it's like, I can go get my hit somewhere else. I don't know.

That's the thing. And like content, that's, as I read your work and listen, it makes me wonder

about Dobson. And just like, there's so much content, contempt for children.

D.L.

18:31

Yes.

Danny

18:31

Well, and I have a lot of friends in the PCA world. And they're like.

Flo

18:35

Which is Presbyterian Church in America.

Danny

18:37

Oh yeah, sorry.

Flo

18:38

Yeah, not PCUSA, Presbyterian Church in America.Danny

18:40

Yeah.

Flo

18:41

Reformed.

Danny

18:42

The contempt for their spouses is like a lot of their brand, you know, and it's like they call their

kids little sinners and they're like, it's so hard to be married. And the reason God has us get

married is so that we'll be sanctified by living with somebody.

Flo

18:57

We're like, what? Just live with someone you like. Like, what is wrong?

Danny

19:03

Contempted breeds and like, yeah, and the shame. And then also like the mediocrity. And just,

yeah, like, Dobson's a mediocre fella. You know, like, what people are willing to do and what

people are willing to fund when they're not, when somebody makes them feel like an expert. in

something, yeah, it's Trumpism, it's Dobbs, it's just like that, I don't know, I can't articulate it,

but the contempt and the mediocrity and the shame, it's just like, damn, how do we break that

addiction?

Flo

19:44

And it starts, yeah, like, I was talking to Danny right before we got on this call that I had a

memory of a friend of ours who, cause my work at the church we're at is primarily with the kids,

and somebody was saying, "oh, we visited another church." And their first visit there, the

lesson for the kids, was on the wrath of God. Like that was the lesson--for children.

D.L.

20:13I mean, how are you going to keep them obedient? Right? Unless they understand the

consequences of disobedience. And that is like, I did this art project last year because I've just

been immersed in all these horrible things. and just put them all in one little corner of this

coffee shop yeah because i'm trying to communicate like that was the main message we were

actually being taught in these spaces was obey or else obey or else which fascism loves that

message my god yeah you know what i mean like just comply with every insane order and you'll

be fine which you know spoiler you won't but that's what they that's what they say and that's

exactly what religious authoritarians are saying about ice at this moment it's because that'swhat they've said to their kids they've become locked into this method of living and danny it's

interesting you mentioned shame because dobson really promoted himself as this like folksy

gentle guy um because he had like a little twang he was born in louisiana and he had this like

soft spoken voice and he mostly did radio but he said you know the way he is telling people to

spank is not harmful to a child what's harmful to a child is when you hurt them out of anger or

rage or you like take their arm out of the socket and like yes of course that's abusive my god

he's like no no no when you do it in a calm and logical manner there's no ill effects And you just

get these perfect children. But in reality, what he was teaching was a ritualized form of abuse

that was absolutely centered on shame and then forced the child at the end of the ritual to say,

thank you. I know this is loving. Give their parent a hug. And then it's trauma bonding at the

end. So, yeah. To me, it's actually worse and more manipulative because he had this whole

thing, like you tell your kid again, they're toddlers. Right. Yeah. And up to what? 12, 13, 14, 15.

Some people are spanking their teenage daughters and it's disgusting. It's disgusting to do that

to anybody. But It gets really wild. But the way he described it, it's like you tell your child, I'm

doing this because I love you, because God wants me to. Then you physically hurt your child to

the point where they cry by hitting them in a very sensitive and honestly sexually charged area

of their body. And then at the end, they have to basically say thank you. I don't, you know, and

give the parent a hug and everybody walks away. Now, who's feeling good in that scenario? The

parent, right? The parent is forcing this trauma bonding at the end. Therefore, they could say

this all went fine. But what do you think actually happens with toddlers? Dobson was like, if they

cry more than like a minute, they're being manipulative. So you have to spank them again. And

you keep doing that pattern, keep saying, I'm doing this because I love you until they can finally

acquiesce and say, stop crying. Say sorry. Say thank you. Hug the parent. And it's just, it's so

disturbing.

Danny

23:40

I'm going to go lay down after I say this, but it's the Eucharist for a lot of people. that's all that is

the liturgy of yeah say you're awful come get your spanking and you get your Jesus.

D.L.

23:54And guess who loves that? predators predators love that but also victims who have been yeah

conditioned right that part of it yeah they both they both freaking love because that's what this

physical punishment is it's like once I'm done hurting you it's all over but for the child it's not

over their nervous system has just absorbed the reality that their caregiver is hurting them and

calling it love now what do you think a little kid's gonna do in that situation are they gonna say

my parent is hurting me and I can't trust them no they they can't do that they rely on this

person for everything so what they do is they say there must be something wrong with me I

must be bad. And here the shame cycle is born, right? And they'll need religion the rest of their

life to absolve them of these feelings they have. And it's really sad. I believe his method,Dobson's parenting method, is ritualized abuse. I mean, he's, he made it into this ritual. And I

think you're exactly right. I think about all the church services I've gone to with men standing

up, giving the communion and dressing like I'm a worm. I'm, I'm worse than a wretch. I'm, yeah,

it's almost comical, but it's not comical because they might not believe that at all. Honestly.

And there's people like me in the pew who's like, yeah, God, I'm a piece of shit. of shit yeah and

i need god to forgive me you know it's just it's wild

Flo

23:54

and every week you have to repeat that yeah like totally yeah yeah which feeds in that that that

need then to be superior to another tradition to another ethnicity all right like that feeds the

scapegoating even more it's like a piece of but not as not as much as them yeah and they need

me like they're gonna be lost if i don't hold to this truth Even like the policing of we had

experienced this in our journey of like people policing other people who take communion

because it's like, I mean, it's wild. But it's like, oh, they're not like, are they repentant of these

things? It's like, like that word is even so triggering. But like, And then going through divinity

school and learning things like, oh, you know, like the verses that are like, you'll heap

condemnation on yourself if you don't take communion in the right way.

D.L.

26:18

Oh, my God. I was so scared of that growing up.

Flo

26:21

No, totally. And then learning that that was not about individual, like, I had a bad thought, but it

was about people who were actually holding food and... sacrament from the poor people in the

community. Like that's what that verse was about.

D.L.

26:34

Which is like every mega church right now.

Flo

26:36

work for them.

Every mega church. Yeah. And it's like, oh, no wonder they didn't spin it that way. That's not

D.L.

26:45I mean, I don't even know if we want to get into all this, but. even thinking about dobson's

crusade against gay people oh yeah it's fascinating when you look into what were the things

actually being talked about in scripture it was pedophilia yes it was men abusing children

sexually and somehow that's never what christians talk about happening in their owncommunities because it is it's happening all the time and as i'm making the case i Currently, for

our series in Strong Willed, these parenting methods led to children who became perfect

victims for people to exploit and abuse in so many ways, including sexually. Plus, in these

religious authoritarian communities, there's this doctrine of forgiveness that... Again, going

back to why it's so important, we call it religious authoritarianism because that religion is

silencing. If you believe in your heart that Christianity is the only true religion, the only way,

you're not going to say something to damage that. And so it's just really sad to me how the

goodness of Christianity has been used to silence people. And it continues to do that over and

over again. I do think with the Epstein files, we're starting to see a tipping point because we're

starting to see it's everywhere. It's not just an evangelical Christian problem, obviously. It's not

just a religious authoritarian problem. It's... it's a it's a people in power problem and we do need

to take it very seriously i guess my wheelhouse is just how how religion and christianity in

particular has been used to to not only enable people to abuse but to get away with it and that's

the part yeah i just can't let go no no Yeah.

Danny

29:02

I think that's how the three of us have found ourselves on the stream yard today.

Flo

29:11Yeah. I mean, gosh. Yeah. When you were talking about the self-blame. I had a meeting with a

children's chaplain at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital, this woman who's doing amazing work.

And my thesis was on prayer with children because of how the harm of so many harmful ways

of using... adult language and, um, and even just like prayer in general, just being so careful

with that, because there's, um, for my own history coming out of like prayers for healing for

people with cancer. And it's like, okay, that's like actually very, very, very damaging to a child to

like have that, you know, um, to be, um, hopeful for some kind of miracle when statistically

that's like impossible. Like that's, that to me is another form of abuse to like say that this is a

psychological abuse. But anyway, she was telling me, yeah, I was, I was talking about like, what

does that do to a child to like pray this way? And then it's not answered. And we were talking

about that and she said, yeah, I, I, and I was coming from a, at the time, a more Christian

probably perspective of, oh, that's going to ruin their perception of God. And she was like, you

know, it's like worse than that because it ruins their perception of themselves because they

think I didn't do something right if my prayer to God is not answered. And that was probably, for

me, the tipping point of like the psychological care, the developmental appropriateness, all of

these things are the most important when considering children and religion or spirituality. And

like that should inform the path of children's spirituality, not like. The other way around, which

has been so much. It's like the Christianity has will override the psychology and be like, well,

but the Bible says.D.L.

31:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I grew up in a charismatic house. And so that those kinds of things

really weighed heavily on me. And I always thought it was because of me. And so I developed

religious OCD as a child, just trying to pray without ceasing to make sure there's no sin in my

life so that when I was, you know, taken to these prayer meetings, if I prayed for someone's

healing, it would work because I was true. Yeah. And it was just devastating. Like, I can't explain

my inner landscape. My mom knew, but she didn't care about my inner world, you know, and I

just think like there's probably a lot more stories like that than we even know my I'm trying to

come around. Obviously, I have a pendulum swing because of my own experience with

evangelical Christianity or any kind of what's the word I'm forgetting the word but. some kind of

relationship with the divine where the divine speaks back to you right yeah i'm very worried

about that but what i will say is dobson loved to say this in his books he's like you know he

hated catholics he's like but they got one thing right they say you know give me a child give me

a child for the first eight years of their life and you'll have a catholic for life Right. Childhood

indoctrination is the way to do this. If you don't focus on indoctrinating your child into this

religion in the first five to eight years of their life, it's all over. So he knew that was so important.

What I would tell people, anyone listening, even if you're, you know, if you're a person of faith, a

Christian, What's so important is help a child develop a sense of self before they develop any

kind of relationship to the divine. Because that's the main problem that happens when you

teach a child to look to an outside locus of control. to tell them what to do, to how to make

choices for how to feel. That is just teaching the child to ignore their body, their emotions, their

thoughts and their feelings. Now, if we can create the steady safety of learning how to do that

for yourself, Yeah. Yeah. Then I think later on you can add in some of these elements of the

divine. Now, my own kids are very helpful in teaching me about this stuff too. One of my kids is

a little more open to Christianity. The other one is kind of drawn to pagan stuff. And it's been

really interesting to be like, yeah, they want to connect and they want to connect to something

as long as they have a really strong sense of self and are in touch with their feelings, their body,

their emotions, their thoughts. I say that's great. But the reason why I think it's helpful to look at

Dobson parenting, all these things, it's like, look at the way he did it and try and do the

opposite. You know what I mean? Like, focus on that inner development, sense of self, core

sense of self, being good, right? And trust your body when it tells you someone's unsafe. Now,

again, going back to the spanking, Yeah. how is a child supposed to ever trust their body if their

body is saying i don't want to be hurt i don't want to be but i'm being told this is good this is

what god wants this is you know you know yeah so there's my big spiel

Danny

34:45and it is i mean your language the the um Your chapter on culture wars and children being the

casualties of the culture war and that war it what it reminds me of as well as it's a war economy.

Right, like nations make money when they're at war Ross Gay, you know, Ross Gay's work. Andinciting joy, he's got this incredible passage about we all we all know who makes money off of

their wars, whether that's war on drugs, war on the family, war on whatever. But that war

language, that war economy, that patriotism of war in all these places is so fascinating. And like,

yeah. what war always lands on the children. And what you're describing sounds like the way

we have to like, you know, gear up for war communally. And it's so isolating. It's so

individualistic. It's so horrible and violent. And then it's told it's virtuous and it's like saving the

world.

D.L.

35:58

Yeah.

Danny

35:59

In this messed up war space. I don't know that I have a question there, but I just, I hear the war

language in it all. um and it again it's always the kids it's always the poor it's always the ones

that are most sacrificed to the gods of war which ultimately it's death like sacrificed to

D.L.

36:18

yeah and i think with the most recent drops in the epstein files people are seeing so many

connections to basically people like steve bannon and others communicating with jeffrey

epstein and basically saying like if we're gonna win, we have the working class on our side when

it comes to hating immigrants. We're gonna vote in the right wing all over the place because of

that. And the same thing happened with queer people and then trans people. And I think we are

starting to see how these culture wars have been manufactured by powerful, rich people so

they could be more powerful and more rich. And they're all freaking pedophiles, by the way, as

well. But I think an under... talked about story is the war on children. Obviously, pedophilia

brings that to mind, but I'm saying there's also this abuse of children happening in so many

ways in the American culture. And if you look into how America, how far we are behind when it

comes to child rights and

Flo

37:36My journey even in all this started as like a musician wanting to make art for kids. At the time it

was like Bible music, but it was like, oh, there's only bad art out there because people don't

care enough about kids to make good art for them. Like they're assuming like we can just churn

out whatever. And, um, And I remember just it being really, it's always been really important to

me to take children seriously and to treat them. We talk, we say this all the time and other

people have used this phrase, but not as deficient adults, but as like whole people that are

deserving of the highest quality of care of, um, of protection of dignity of respect. Um, and

even like you were saying, I feel like I'm most critical of it in high control religion, evangelicalspaces, but I see it in like on threads and Twitter when people are like, uh, I just want to go play

somewhere where there's no kids or like, or like babies shouldn't be allowed on airplanes. And

it's like, I am so, um, it's wild that we feel comfortable or people feel comfortable saying that

about children. Like, I just don't like kids.

Danny

39:20

And then you justify it by calling them bad, right? In that, you tell them, well, they're little

sinners. They're little pieces of shit, too. We got to make them not be pieces of shit. So we're

justified in, like, landing our contempt on them. We're not. You know what I mean? But in that

space.

Flo

39:35

And that contempt being, like... It might just be, we talked to Brian Recker the other day. It was

like just dysregulation. Like that child is just learning how to be a human. And we're like, oh,

they're sinning because they're hungry. Like that's.

D.L.

39:50

I mean, that's kind of where. my partner Crispin and I keep camping out is like if people just

could understand what normal childhood development is I think that could help us in so many

ways now again I'm sorry to keep bringing this up but oh no this is just what I'm obsessed with

so because of my work on Dobson I got obsessed with this presidential commission he was on

and about pornography, but he ended up learning a ton about serial child predators, how they

operate, how they get away with their crimes, have their most often the pillar of the community.

So, you know, the pastor, the little league coach, the business guy, and that's how they get

away with it. Cause nobody wants to thank their buddy, their friend, the, you know, whatever is

doing this. So one of the things I discovered when researching the profile of a child molester is

that they believe children are little adults. Okay. So they see them as peers and they see them

as they know concept of developmental difference. But And like I when I read that I was like oh

my god like this is a hallmark of abusive parenting methods right is again to Dobson called the

toddlers tyrants dictators like sinners like. uh what what do some of the evangelical authors call

them uh vipers and diapers like that's how pedophiles okay yeah you don't want to think like a

pedophile you better start engaging with children as their age and development you know like

where they're actually at so that's again another thing i want to throw out there's like yeah and

all of that great you're thinking like a predator just so you know.

Flo

41:34

Yep. Yep.

Danny41:43

Man.

D.L.

41:43

Sorry, I do this.

Danny

41:45

No, I am.

Flo

41:50

Vipers and diapers.

D.L.

41:52

You got to sit with that one. You got to sit with that one.

Danny

41:55

I pictured this like little street gang of babies on their tricycles and their gang name is vipers

and diapers.

Flo

42:02

Yep.

D.L.

42:05

Yeah.

Danny

42:05Wholesome. Yeah. But so I in Liam Ramos, this little five year old boy, right, who's kidnapped by

the United States government. I was like, so much of this, we talked about it like being

eucharistic in the sickest way, but also the Genesis story of Abraham. And Isaac and how this is

such a replication of that. And like, I was, it dawned on me a few weeks ago, I was like thinking

about that little guy's name and Ramos. And I was like, is that connected to Ram? And it, the

etymology, like it's thicket. Like, gosh, wow. And just the like, I have a friend named David who's

like, there are no unrelated phenomena, David Dark. And like, yeah. And it's like the universe is

calling us into, hey, you've made this little guy the ram in a thicket, right? And you've justified it.

And like, this is the ram that God is providing in that sick, sick way in the scapegoat world. But

like, as you talk about the vipers, like this kid's name is actually ram caught in a thicket. or one

take on that name and that we're so deaf to it. That's not the right word, numb to it all. And justlike, it's just begging us to wake up. And even that, in a, I think like a merciful way, like come

back to humanity, come back to the connection that you talk about your kids, right, pagan,

Christian, just like, could we all be connected?

Flo

43:32

Come back to each other and heal and, just yeah it's just the way it's used for evil vibras and

diapers and how even in that space there is a way out like there is a waking up which requires

uh calling it out and them and and not like you have been saying like the forgiveness piece like

not jump like not that like not Not. Yeah.

Danny

43:59

And who gets that and who doesn't. Right. The little league coach who's doing it to abuse kids.

We like, again, I keep saying we just like, but like the, that's justified. We can't confront that.

There has to be mercy here. He needs to be called up to the front with his wife or whatever.

Meanwhile, like, you know, beating a kid because they have to be the one and it just all lands on

them over.

D.L.

44:22

I mean, I'm so glad you brought up the Abraham and Isaac story because I view James

Dobson's books again I keep talking about him because he was sort of like the first modern

movement.

Flo

44:27

Yeah.

D.L.

44:33

And then there's all these copycats and you know if people were raised with some of the other

books they're even worse if I'm being honest. But to me, these books serve as the Abraham

Isaac story. When you get a parent to hurt their child in the name of God and to ignore their

cries, ignore their pain, you just ensnared those parents for life to say this has to be good or

else...

Flo

44:52

Yeah.

D.L.

45:03

I'm hurting my children for what you know so to me the Abraham Isaac story is so connected tothese books I'm glad you brought it up and I just find it so horrifying how it's used to ensnare

people I do think some people who are already prone to wanting to abuse their kid were drawn

to these books but plenty of people who were not That's a great sign. You deserve therapy. You

deserve ways to process that. And if you're able to take accountability, name the harm you've

perpetuated, own your shit and work towards repair, like that's amazing. And that's great. And

there's people out there who are doing it. It's amazing. Not the majority, I'll tell you that, but

there are those folks out there and I think that's been an interesting place for us is to say like

estrangement is happening in so many of these families and communities that utilize these

methods, and it doesn't have to be like that if you could acknowledge that your heart, your role

in the harm, that is just honestly such a huge first step. And that's the most difficult one, I think,

because it was so connected to their faith and showing that they're devoted to God. Why would

they ever apologize for that? So it's so sticky.

Flo

46:43

Yeah, I. a couple of things. Well, I was, um, my brain is like a million things at once, but like, I

was thinking about even my story with my mom of being like, it's so easy to dismiss that as like,

oh, they were just a product of their time. And like, everybody was telling them to do this. And I,

I understand empathize on one level, but then again, like she didn't like, she was like, and she

was in it. Like she was in a church. Yeah. She was like all in and she was like, but this is, this is

not right. And so like it, that piece of my story, I think has helped me to be able to say like, first

of all, trust your intuition as a parent. And secondly, that like the product of their time excuse

just doesn't hold. And, and there can be, I think there can be, you know,

Danny

47:59I don't know if you know this, but I grew up in a cult, in southern california. 400 people followed

a guy from California and all of the sexual abuse started coming out in the early 2000s. And

there was this meeting of the whole thing. The woman who had sort of been like the most

sacrificed that we knew about at that point talked about what she had been through. And the

room turned on her and what the cult leader's son-in-law, who was like, there's always like two

sons who aren't capable to take over. And also the son-in-law's not, and the daughter's the

smartest, but she can't become the leader. So it becomes that that is fascinating to me. But

anyway, so he's in charge and he says, uh, You were telling us you knew the secrets of the

universe. Like this guy was telling us he was the Apostle Paul for the world in 1986. But like

butter on a burnt. So it's like, what is it? Are you like the mystic? guy on the planet or did you

have something to learn but again that like that intersection of arrogance and mediocrity and

like but we didn't know better yeah we didn't know better but also if you didn't listen to us you

had no hope in your life and that space like you're saying that's that will never be repentance

when there's an ounce of excuse. I hate it. Again, I don't know. I'm ranting more than asking

questions.D.L.

49:42

I love it, but it goes back to even like Dobson's methods, right? You don't give your child an inch

of grace. They get corporal punishment every time they say no to you. Every single time. And

yet, when one of them does something horrible, what is it? It's grace. If you had shown your

kids that grace, I might be more inclined to believe you, but You fucking didn't, bro. So, you

know, I sometimes I just find myself vibing with the words of Jesus and you know, you reap

what you sow. I love that. I freaking love that. Didn't Jesus say like, it's better to have a

millstone hung around your neck and you be thrown into the sea rather than you abuse a child.

I'm like, yes, yes, yes. That's right that's what i believe you know?

Danny

50:22

Like how is that not obvious you know what i mean like that that would be debatable

Flo

50:22

or be like a child this was like my whole work was like be like a child before you can like see the

kingdom of heaven like what does that mean like it doesn't mean be naive and trust everything

it means like what does a child do a child says no and talks back and is messy and in their body.

Like those are this, that's what I think being a child is, you know?

D.L.

51:06

Wow. I thank you. That really helped reframe some stuff for me because my mom used it. She

used to always tell me I had the most beautiful childlike faith. and that just meant I didn't listen

to anyone but her you know and so I'm like oh I love hearing you say it's messy it's strong-willed

it's being in your body because kids really are yeah there's so much no 100 like that's awesome

I love that yeah

Danny

51:37yeah it reminds me one of my favorite books is the little prince and how the sort of like the

characteristics that he has that i love so much it's like he never when he got hold of a question

he wouldn't let it go um and then just this consistent like meeting people who would say

something about the world grown-ups it would say things about the world and he would just

always say that's not very serious and that like refusal to let go of a question mixed with that

barometer of like what's not serious and i think all this dobson you it's like you're not a serious

person you're in serious damage but you're not a serious person um and every kid knows that

you know like on some visceral level obviously we're raised in these situations where we aren't

allowed to know that but there's a piece of us that that um just knows that's not serious. And I'd

better freaking seriously keep my eyes open for it because it will hurt me, but it's also, there's

no way that's true. Which also I remember as I listened to you, I mean, a prayer of mine thewhole time when I was in a cult and today like is just, I don't care what it will cost me, you know,

if I were to find out, like if I were to not be a Christian anymore, like if it's not true, and I don't

mean like the only way, I know that's not where I am these days, but like, just telling God the

divine, like, I don't, just please give me something real and true. I don't care what that's named.

I don't need the system, but I need something that is real, probably even more than true in that

space. But yeah, I really appreciate your work because all those things, the little prints, I

appreciate the way you don't let go of the questions. pursue the serious nature of it all.

D.L.

53:31

Yeah. And, you know, I've been an existentialist my whole life. And that's why I love the little

prince myself. And I do think where I'm at right now, as far as like what's true, because again,

both of you guys as pastors, as people who work with people, I'm sure you're going to see this

continue to happen. We are seeing such an intense unveiling with the Epstein files and just how

many people, businesses, media, media, really this core belief I have which is if we treat

children better the world will get better like that's it the world will get better so flow Danny I

know you guys are with me I know there's plenty of Christians who are with me and it's like this

has to be the thing I think we call us around because the abuse of children is central to the

Epstein files and we should take that seriously going back to me being serious about this And

therefore, if we take it seriously, it's like create safe places for kids.

Flo

55:00

Yep.

D.L.

55:01

Put in just the normal practices in your church business institution to protect kids. Like the

world will get better overnight. I promise.

Danny

55:10

Yeah.

Flo

55:10

Yeah.

D.L.

55:10

I promise you. So that's what I guess that's what I would tell people, you know?

Danny

55:14100%. Yes.

Flo

55:15

Yeah.

Danny

55:16

And both of us.

Flo

55:17

Sorry. Go ahead.

Danny

55:18

No, no, no. Just like we both have an affinity for anarchy. I really believe like the world these

days, like it's all been exposed. It's all anarchy. It's either the anarchy of the wealthy or the

anarchy of the children. And I think, I really think what Jesus is saying is Choose the anarchy of

the children. What you just said, make it better for a kid. I'm here to turn hearts against each

other. And it's the father, it's the sons against the fathers. It's John the Baptist. Like, I'm going

to turn the hearts back towards each other. And it'll be when justice is done for the future.

When the ones who have accumulated wealth stop accumulating wealth and give their coats to

the kids. Like, it's all like choosing that anarchy of the children. And then I think, you know,

again, like Jesus, not in a proselytizing way, but just to like, one of the things that remains

compelling about him in these spaces, he said, oh, they'll hate you. Like when he wasn't like,

and then you will be welcomed and celebrated in every room you go into. It's like choose the

anarchy of the children, make it better for them today and be ready because it will be hated by

those people who built it on the backs of the children. So yeah, that invitation into let's choose

this joyful anarchy of the children who are actually in their bodies, who can teach us, who let's

not give them more things to unlearn.

D.L.

56:41

Wow, this needs to be a book, both of you. I hope you're writing a book about the anarchy of

children.

Flo

56:46

I've never heard you say the anarchy of children. He's writing about anarchy. I'm writing about

children's spirituality in a way that is just like trusting children.

D.L.

56:56But that's so connected, don't you think? I love that.

Flo

56:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's and I think both of us having... Or at least, yeah, like I feel like now on

the other side of parenting, like I've got two kids that are in college and, um, and having chosen

them and having had our, this is a long story for another day, but like our church had gone

through, like left its denomination did all, you know, over, um, protecting the, the, our LGBTQ

folks and our children and choosing them over the denominational institution. And, and so

having had that experience and seeing my kids being able to celebrate who they are, like,

they're not Christian, like they don't go to church, but their, their church still chose them. And

like they're, and they, it's so beautiful because there's not, it's not with expectations. There's

not time. Like, it's like. it's, I think they feel loved. I think they are respected, um, in a way that's

like real, not for what they believe or who they might, or like what they might believe someday.

Like that's irrelevant. Like it's who they are is what matters. And, um, and I think having seen

that, we say this all the time, like it does, it is hard, but it doesn't have to be that hard. Like it, it

doesn't like it, it's a simple, it, it, It's costly, perhaps, but it's a simple choice.

D.L.

58:26

Yeah. I mean, in America, right, children are being kidnapped by masked agents, right? It

happened in my neighborhood. The seven-year-old girl, her parents took her to the emergency

room because she had a fever. I live in Oregon. They kidnapped her and her parents and she

was sent to Texas in a detention center, which is basically a concentration camp. Now, we had a

local pastor of a mainline denomination get up in front of our city council and just plead with the

city council like we have to declare ice and emergency and i just thought like this is exactly

what churches should be doing like this is it this is your moment everyone who says they care

about children like now's the time and and some churches are rising to that and i have been so

grateful to see it but i just want to i want to see that continue on more and more yes

Flo

59:20

Same. And I think it's a very real unveiling of like, because I've had the same, I've had this

shock sometimes of being able to not being able to reconcile. Yeah. The like same people who

are like, but the children all the time, not actually caring about the children, but it is an unveiling

to me of like, oh yeah, it was never about the children. It was about power and control. And, and

we didn't even touch on this yet, but like Danny and I, talked about this before and listening to

your work and like whiteness and all of the things like it's all all all all tied in together

D.L.

59:53

so true well i'm sort of shocked by like i've just really enjoyed both of your like spiritualreflections as they came up they both really resonated with me so thanks for sharing that with

me yeah thank you

Flo

01:00:12

Thank you for listening. I think we're so over it. We talk all the time about how we're probably

going to be out of jobs soon because we're not very good at maintaining or recruiting, whatever

the words are that people use. But we laugh all the time because... if people come up to us and

say they're, they've been traumatized by the church and can't come to church, we're like, then

don't go to church. Like that's like, like then don't go like that's like, that's not a good place.

Yeah. Um, but it's, um, there. Yeah. And well, on a positive note, to have been through the

journey, even with our small church community and the people that have stayed, like to see that

that many people have coalesced around children and around what is good and true and real in

the world, what matters and physical safety of people that that's not like, That is good spiritual

care, not just like, are their souls saved or whatever.

D.L.

01:01:41

but some people really need those safe spaces, I think as well, and you probably know this too,

but it’s such an unfun job to have, that you both have, but I just think that by centering children

this is going to help people this is going to help us all if we can keep getting this message out

there.

Danny

01:01:41

And I think if we can compliment part of that group that you're talking about, St. Mary's, we're

so grateful to get to serve this community. I think they understand that focusing on the children

is not focusing on the family. Like the nuclear family focus does not lead to caring for kids,

especially marginalized kids. And it's like, focusing on the family, the nuclear family, that

becomes capitalism.

D.L.

01:02:10

Yeah.

Danny

01:02:10

Spending units when it's like, you know, OK, there's a kid kidnapped by the government. We

can get into that or we can build a more beautiful Sunday school room and put the money there

because we care about kids. Like it's so insidious in those spaces. But just to say in this

conversation.

Flo

01:02:24Yeah.

Danny

01:02:26

Yeah. You're it's not centering children to center the nuclear family.

Flo

01:02:30

Right.

Danny

01:02:30

And that's like such a part of this disease.

D.L.

01:02:33

Exactly. Yeah.

Danny

01:02:36

And I have four kids. I love my family. And it also doesn't mean... Yeah. It's been the most

wonderful thing in this journey and becoming affirming. It's like just even going to protests and

it's like the most wholesome people on the planet.

D.L.

01:02:54

Oh my God. It's so true. It's so true. I know.

Danny

01:03:00

And it's so funny how it's so much more wholesome than what the brand of wholesomeness.

Flo

01:03:08

- I know, I had people in my life telling me that like supporting my gay kids was like letting them

touch a hot stove. And I was like, but do you see them? Like, do you see how amazing they are

and like what they're doing in the world? And like, can you just look and notice? Like, you know.

Yeah, I will always joke that when people talk about the gay agenda, I'm like, it's my kid

crocheting on the couch. Like, what are you talking about?

Danny

01:03:40

The gay agenda is human rights and you can crochet your frog all day.

Flo

01:03:45You can crochet your frogs. Yeah.

D.L.

01:03:50

I have a kid like that, so I get it.

Flo

01:03:55

Well, it's just about an hour. And so we, yeah, we're just so thankful, so thankful for this

conversation. Again, I've been like such an admirer from afar and it's, it's been really a joy to get

to actually talk to you and see your face.

D.L.

01:04:11

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this, which is, I was not expecting to because honestly,

things are so wild right now, but yeah, thanks so much for this conversation and for hosting it.

Flo

01:04:22

Yeah. All right. And again, listeners, this is D.L. Mayfield, author and podcaster and look at the

project, the Strong-Willed Project, and do the opposite of what the quote-unquote Dr. James

Dobson would do. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye.

Danny

01:04:48Thank you for listening to another episode of Blessed Uncertainty. Special thanks to Kyle Lock

for producing, his brother Adam Lock for our logo, and J. Lind for our theme music.