Episode 4 Transcript - Hell, Children, and the God of Love with Brian Recker

Flo: [00:00:04] Welcome to Blessed Uncertainty, where faith is a wide and wandering path. We are very excited about today's guest, Brian Recker, who is a former evangelical pastor, aologian, and a writer, who at the time of this recording back in October had just released his book, Hellbent, How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love. We really enjoyed this conversation as we talked about letting go of the harmful theology that so deeply affects our children and ourselves, and surprisingly, left a lot, despite talking about hell with our new friend, Brian Recker.

Danny: [00:00:35] Congratulations. Release day yesterday. Excited for you. I got it yesterday. I started. I'm going through it and loving it. Really grateful.

Brian: [00:00:54] Yeah, same. Yeah, it was a cool day. I was telling my girlfriend, you only get probably a few days like that, you know, kind of those once in a lifetime days. And so I had like a book launch event last night and everybody was just really kind and encouraging. And so I felt I'm like really tired now, but it was one of those really rich. I just feel like I came off of a really rich day that I want to like remember, you know. But now it's weird because I've been talking about this book for over five months, like in pre-order season. I've been selling the book and talking about it for like five months. and nobody's really been reading it until like yesterday. And so finally, this thing that I've been talking about is in other people's hands. And I kind of want to, I'm almost like, I want to stop talking about it. But now people are just like, hey, we just got it. We're going to talk about it. So it's kind of a funny like timeline thing that happens. But no, I'm really excited to see how it hits people.

Flo: [00:01:48] Yeah.

Brian: [00:01:49] Same.

Flo: [00:01:50] Yeah. Yeah, I listened to it on audio yesterday or started listening to, I'm almost through. And it's, I think I was just so, what struck me the most was how compelling it is and how loving and hospitable and invitational it is with these ideas that I know that could be threatening to people who might have grown up thinking that this is a deal breaker and hell is deal breaker. You gotta believe in it. And so the way that you're, the way, I mean, so much of it is the whole point. Like the whole point is avoid hell. So the way you invite people in with, I think, a lot of humility and just, yeah, it's just invitational that I really appreciated that aspect.

Brian: [00:02:44] I'm glad you felt that. I have a feeling like the, I don't know, if like an evangelical reviewer gets a hold of that, he probably will. I'm like, this isn't humble at all. This arrogance. No, no. But yeah, I tried to, especially I tried to be aware of just a lot of the different audiences. I mean, the people are coming to this thing from so many different perspectives. I have a very specific background raised in fundamentalism and spent a lot of time in evangelicalism. My editor was really helpful because she is fully deconverted. She was a former Christian and she helped me make it even, I think, a bit more approachable to people who maybe don't consider themselves Christians at all. And then, you know, people that maybe were more progressive Christians, I think is an interesting category because I am, I would say I'm a progressive Christian now, but that's not my upbringing. And I know that a lot of people who grew up as more mainline Christians maybe wouldn't have had that sort of upbringing. Although I'm coming to realize that even in progressive Christianity, hell is often still, they're not really sure what to do with it. And they kind of avoid it, but it's still, at least for the people in the pews, still a of their mental model for one of the reasons why you should probably be a Christian rather than not. And so that's been an interesting thing to see. I think that it's still a conversation that even needs to happen a little bit outside of just the cul-de-sac of evangelicalism, because we have to have a bigger vision, I think, for what this spirituality is all about than just what's going to happen after we die.

Flo: [00:04:16] For sure. And you talk about that in the book, about how that impacts our life here on earth and how we treat people and how all of those things. I think one part that I appreciated is also how accessible it was. I know I'd read some books, more academic theological books about Christian universalism that I would try to like impart little nuggets to folks like, oh my gosh, I just read this. And I think you would love it. And then they're like, like trying to read a David Bentley heart your friend

Brian: [00:04:46] yeah I can barely get through David Bentley heart I'm a reader and I love I love his writing he's absolutely brilliant but then I'm like what did I just read like what I literally I finished that all shall be saved I remember I closed it and I was like wow that was incredible and then I was like wait what was his argument like I don't think I need to read it again.

Flo: [00:05:13] No, totally.

Danny: [00:05:14] I know who he doesn't like.

Flo: [00:05:16] I know.

Brian: [00:05:18] He's such a funny writer. I wish I could channel his snark and brilliance. I tried to condense. I took some nuggets from him. But you're right. I tried to put the cookies on the shelf where people could reach him. That's a good way.

Danny: [00:05:34] Universal cookie shelving.

Flo: [00:05:38] Oh, yeah. Well, and I think one takeaway for me from his book and really from my maybe descent into Christian universalism, which always starts with, gosh, I really hope this is true. Like, I think there was like this feeling when you're on the verge of something like that, where you're like, I just, I want this to be it, you know? And I think-

Brian: [00:06:03] You don't even understand people that don't want that to be true. That's what really was the bit of a mind screw for me was when I realized, oh, the Bible doesn't really require this. So it's like, so why are we choosing to believe this? You guys don't want this to be true, right?

Flo: [00:06:21] Right. And yeah, and like that kind of moment of accepting that reality, I remember texting with Danny because this was like maybe six-ish years ago that I feel like I just went kind of more all in or five years ago. and I think we were texting about, I said, it feels like a reconversion in a way that instead of like being like, now I've got to evangelize everyone so that they're saved was like, oh my gosh, I love, I feel like I love everyone in a deeper way. And this relief and the way that that anxiety and stress just left, like, I felt like I just want everybody to have this peace. And I think that's what comes through in your writing too, really well.

Brian: [00:07:11] Yeah, I do. I want, I think there is a piece that comes with that. And also an ability to just love people where they're at. I have a quote. There's a Thomas Merton quote at the beginning of, I want to say it's chapter two or three. Hold on. I'm going to find it right now. Where he says that exact thing that, sorry. it says the beginning of love is the will to let those we love be perfectly themselves the resolution not to twist them to fit our own image and i couldn't do that when i believed in hell um if loving someone where they're at meant just allowing them to continue down a path that would lead them into hell you you can't really just be comfortable with with where people are or or you felt like you were betraying your faith to do that. I actually felt guilty for not being more pushy about my faith. Like that was how I grew up. I felt like, oh, if I was more spiritual, I would, I would be, I would be more aggressive probably with, with my friends and like really trying to get them to come to church or really understand the gospel because otherwise these guys are going to go to hell. And so there is something about just being able to relax into relationships and actually realize like, okay, I don't have to change them. I wonder if they might have something for me. Which is something that I think we would miss.

Flo: [00:08:38] Yeah.

Danny: [00:08:39] Which I think even Jesus could enter into a conversation that way and wonder what somebody would have for him when he was here and the lack of anxiety that he spoke with people. Like the rich young ruler. like okay you can leave like it's not but if you die today do you know where you'll go it's like bye and we'll talk again someday like just the patience to let somebody yeah be on a jo urney and

Brian: [00:09:09] and it said he loved him it said look looking at him he loved him and yeah i think that is a hard thing when um yeah i think it's dallas willard who described jesus as relaxed like the one word to describe Jesus was relaxed. That's like a famous Dallas word. What word would you describe Jesus and his was relaxed? And yeah, I don't think that a belief in hell for everybody who doesn't believe exactly like you is going to lead to that kind of non-anxious presence.

Danny: [00:09:41] Go ahead, Flo.

Flo: [00:09:41] No, you can go ahead. It's going to go in a different way.

Danny: [00:09:45] the reality of hell here and then the seriousness of dealing with the hells that we live in the hells that we're trapped in the hells that our lives trap others in like to get very serious about that hell i see in jesus as well um it's like let's address real hell let's not be full of anxiety about profitable pretend hell um yeah get to joyful work it's just so much freedom in it

Brian: [00:10:15] really good way to say it. I don't know if I say it quite as clearly as that, that one of the problems with a focus on hell in the afterlife is that we do miss the hells that we create in this life, which I think that actually is what Jesus was talking about. When I kind of explore the metaphor of Gehenna, I do believe that that was hell on earth, that Jesus was talking about the kinds of worlds that we're creating with our failure to love, that we can either build the kingdom of God, or we can experience Gehenna and the Valley of Slaughter. And those are kind of the two paths that are before us. And I think when we export all that to the afterlife as the primary thing, we are going to miss what Jesus is actually talking about. So I hope people feel that urgency that it's not just like oh, this actually doesn't matter. There's no hell. I think actually it matters more when you realize, oh, we're missing the urge. So there is like a fire. I still believe in fire and brimstone preaching. I think we need more of it. But not about the fire and brimstone that's waiting for us after we die. The bombs that we're dropping right now. We are literally the same Christian nationalists who are doing revival meetings at political rallies and doing altar calls to get people to get saved for the afterlife so that they're saving them from hell in the afterlife. They are funding the bombs that are creating hell right now in this life in Gaza.

Flo: [00:11:43] and yeah on children and i mean all humans but children yeah it's unfathomable so i do think

Brian: [00:11:52] that yeah if you're if you're christianity is going to be focused on that that's one of the primary things that that belief does is it kind of softens the necessity of justice in this life um because it just pales in comparison um there's no i think there's a lot of christians that try to have it both ways. You know, I was like a big Tim Keller fan when I was an evangelical pastor. And one thing I liked about Tim Keller was that he centered social justice. He really talked about social justice a lot. He wrote a book called Generous Justice, all about, you know, how the church should be more socially engaged for justice in this world. And so I'm not saying it's impossible to care about social justice and still believe in hell, which Keller did. But I don't think that it ever really works. Like there's a reason why within that framework, it's always been embattled. Like Keller amongst his peers was seen as some left-wing kook, which is actually hysterical when you think about it. And part of it was when he would talk about justice. I mean, I don't know if you remember if you were in the world, I was in like this sort of gospel coalition world. So I paid attention to all the publications that came out, but Kevin DeYoung is another gospel coalition guy. And he wrote a book called What is the Mission of the Church, which was basically the big idea of that was like, it's not justice, it's salvation. We have to refocus on salvation. And there's almost like he was upset, like that there's been this creeping move to care too much about justice. And we've got to get back focused on the main thing because hell is hot, you know? And like, what are we doing here? Like, if we're going to piddle around about, oh, like we should do more socially, like the rest of the world can care about that. The church is the only organization that's trying to save people from what really matters, which is hell. And honestly, if hell is real, then that perspective makes perfect sense. And honestly, efforts to do justice in this world, what they end up becoming, I point out in the book, is basically a bait and switch where it's like, come and see the good that we're doing so that you can receive this gospel message that actually, you know, solidifies your fate in the next world. So it never becomes justice for justice's sake or love for love's sake. It's usually justice and love as a means of getting people's feet in the door. And I just think that's really problematic and not the way Jesus operated.

Flo: [00:14:12] Yeah, that's maybe kind of a great segue into shifting towards children's spirituality and how these efforts have been aimed at children specifically too. And I mean, like three and four year olds with their checkered pasts need to repent, and...

Brian: [00:14:32] The last night at my book event, I I had folks and I wasn't really sure who would be in the room because it was like literally I just kind of put it out on social media. And there were there were like 50 people there that I didn't really know. But I kind of had a feeling that if they were drawn to this and they probably had something like this in their background. So I asked that group to raise their hand if they had ever gotten saved or been converted or accepted Jesus into their heart or been born again or whatever you want to call it. Like if they did that at some point, raise your hand. Like almost everybody raised their hand, 95% of people. And I was like, okay, keep your hands up. And if hell was a part of your mental model when you made that decision, like if you knew about hell as a consequence for not getting saved, right, keep your hand up. And everybody kept their hand up. Like those things were intertwined. And I was like, okay, keep your hands up. If that decision was made before you were 10 years old, keep your hand up. And again, like two people put their hand down. It was the vast majority that made that decision, which was this afterlife based decision about, Hey, do you want to be in a relationship with God and become a Christian and go to heaven? Or do you not want to do that and go to hell? Which choice? Like which way kid? Like you choose this, this really wasn't a choice. And this was something that was a very, just a really common experience for the majority of people who grew up in American Christianity. And that did, that shaped the way that we viewed God from a very early age. For me, the concept of God and the concept of hell were absolutely intertwined. I learned about them at the same time. And one of the main reasons that you needed to be in a relationship with God, we talk about relationship with God. For most of us, that relationship started with hell, with the awareness of the consequences for not being in that relationship. And so I don't know how you then expect kids to view God, you know, you tell them, we tell them until we're blue in the face. Well, God is love. Like, and, you know, pure, pure love, but like, it's hard to get away from that initial, the foundation of that decision. Richard Rohr says that how you get there is where you arrive. And if, if, if how you get into the relationship is, well, it's this or hell buddy. I don't know that that's ever going to not be the main, even, even though you're never going to say that out loud. I don't think most people will be like, well, I'm a Christian because I'm afraid of not being a Christian. We don't want to admit that that's the truth of our spirituality. We want our spirituality to be based in love. But I just don't know how you get there when that's the foundation. And you can theologize. You can come up with all kinds of theologies about, well, this is why hell is actually a good thing. And this is why it's just. And God doesn't send anybody there. It's self-chosen. It's hard to be inside. You can say all these things. But at the end of the day, Like emotionally, I don't think there's an emotional defense for the fact that we met God in fear. And I know that affected my childhood.

Flo: [00:17:20] Right. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of my MDiv, my recent MDiv work was about primarily about children's spirituality and ethics of children's spirituality and ethics. It was more concentrated on the ethics of prayer and how prayers of coercion and even prayers for things like healing and things like that could be very detrimental to children psychologically. And part of that included like altar calls for children and, you know, sharing the gospel with children. When my research in Mark 10, where Jesus blesses the children, is that there was no requirement for children to ask Jesus into their heart. There was no requirement for them to have correct theology. There was no nothing of that nature, no prayers, no confession, nothing like that. And yet Jesus says the kingdom of heaven already belongs to these children. And so that was so, I mean, what evangelicalism presents as the gospel of children is so antithetical to the gospel of Jesus, shown clearly, if you want to talk about clear scripture, like clearly to us, demonstrated like the model of receiving this kingdom is just to be a human. And, you know, children are messy, children cry, children live in their emotions. And so I always thought like, if this is how the model is for children, what does that say about the rest of humanity?

Brian: [00:18:57] That's really beautiful. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I never really thought about that in that sense that, yeah, if he says the kingdom of God is for children, he blesses the children. Then it's like, well, maybe that's what it looks like to receive the gospel then.

Flo: [00:19:13] Right.

Brian: [00:19:14] Kids are really entitled, you know, in a sense, like to their parents' love. Like they kind of have this expectation that like, yeah, I deserve that love. I'm your kid. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that is like perfectly appropriate. Like, and I learned that I was worthy of hell. That's what I deserve. Like baseline, what I deserved was hell. Anything I got above that was grace. That's what grace meant. I received the definition of grace was really it's undeserved favor, which is any favor really, because what you deserve is hell. And so as opposed to, I still believe Christianity is about grace, but not grace because you deserve punishment. You deserve baseline hell. And so anything you get, you should just be thankful. That's grace. I believe that the message of grace is the message that we all deserve care and love and grace. Like we deserve that love. That is the message of grace that you didn't have to do anything to deserve that love. Just being human, just being an image bearer of God, you were made for love and not like, well, you're not worthy of that love, but God's going to give it to you anyway. If you, you know, jump to these particular hoops. No, like that, the grace is that it is deserved actually. And that you didn't have to do anything to deserve it. It is innately your birthright love. You are entitled to it. You can ask God as a good father And God, when you find heaven ripped open on the other side of that spiritual veil is a father who is saying, this is my beloved child. I'm well pleased with you. And that to me is the message of grace now.

Flo: [00:20:58] That's so beautiful. And so I think would be, it is such a helpful idea for parents who are maybe struggling with letting go of some of these ideas to, um, to kind of latch onto that and, and think about their own relationship with their kids and how much they love their kids. And something, something I think that you talk about a little bit in your book that's helpful is just that it can be loving parents that inadvertently, but also a little on purpose. I mean, it's hard. It's like intent and impact and all that stuff. But it's like, I know that I remember there being a real fear in me when I was a young parent. And this was like 20 years ago of like, oh, I've got to save my kid's soul from hell. I've got to make sure my kids don't go to hell. Like that's a huge, like what, what a burden on top of just like trying to like get up and brush your teeth like that with a baby, like that's like a lot to put on parents. And, and so I think there are, there are definitely some parents that are just maybe like latch on to this authoritative high control religion piece because they're terrible people. But like, there's a lot of parents that are just like, I'm scared. I don't want to spend eternity separated from my child or for them to suffer. And I think something you talk about in your book also is trusting your intuition on that that can't be the way. And I think as a parent for myself, that was probably a huge journey in this direction was like, I don't think God's sending my kids to hell. Like this does not feel right.

Brian: [00:22:41] Absolutely. And, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for the fact that my parents still carry that belief about their own children. And my dad recently expressed like some, you know, he feels like a lousy father because his three grown children are not following in that way anymore. And so he fears that we would go to hell. And so that reflects on him then. And so it is pretty hard not to feel like you have to control the outcomes for your kids when the stakes are that high. And you can't control who somebody becomes. You can't control what somebody believes. And I tried to say, like, you're not a lousy dad. Like, the point of parenting is not to control what we believe or what we become. It's to stay connected to us on this journey of life as we become whoever we become. And the thing is, though, it's easy for me to say, because I can celebrate who my kids become, because regardless of who they become, even if I don't like it very much, at least I don't think they're going to go to fucking hell.

Flo: [00:23:36] Right?

Danny: [00:23:39] I like to wake mine up and tell them you're already there, kids.

Brian: [00:23:45] Probably getting worse.

Danny: [00:23:47] Hell is here. Go to school. It's so funny, too. Like my own kids, like in their journey, I got 1918, 15 and 12. And they're. Yeah, when they were when the older two were born, I had this fear. I was like, what if I've never loved anyone like this? and like what and that was the seeds of me not believing in that anymore we're definitely in parenting but like my kids they're wrestling i don't even know if they're wrestling with all of it but i would say that they know jesus in a way that they couldn't have if the reason they would have believed and i don't know you know i don't think that today many of them think that jesus is God, but they know him and they get what he is about and they want what he wants for the world. And I have no worry. David Bentley Hart, he talks about, he believes that the atheist's rejection, refusal to worship a God unworthy of worship is a truer act of worship than confessing a God so clearly unworthy of worship. And that's, I don't want to tell my kids, you're worshiping God. Like that, I don't mean it like that, but for what I believe about the world, I feel like that's worship but there is just this shocking gift that we get back when it's not fear to love everyone and like you quoted merton and just that freedom really in parenting to um to really not be obsessed with the outcomes but really get to be with them um through it all yeah i just your book i just sense that freedom and it's yeah i mean

Brian: [00:25:31] It's been incredibly refreshing. I lived with, so when I was a pastor, let's see, when did I, my kids were three and five when I left. And so five, he was just getting at that age where I'm supposed to get this kid saved, aren't I? And the other pastors,

Flo: [00:25:53] time's almost up.

Brian: [00:25:53] Their kids were starting to get saved. Their kids were starting to have those, they were having those moments and they were, we were celebrating it at, you know, um, staff meeting like, Oh my gosh, you, we led, led them to the Lord last night that family devotions or whatever. Right. And I, I remember feeling like, Oh, I'm supposed to be doing that. But it didn't ever sit right with me. And I was in process theologically as well with, with what I believed about all that, but I was still in the world where that was very much what you were supposed to be doing. And, and I didn't fully, in some ways, I didn't take apart some of the last bits of it until getting out of the evangelical institution. Because from within, it is, it is very hard to, yeah, I think to change your mind about something that would mean, you know, losing your entire community and that sort of thing. So I was still like, I was more like a hopeful universalist, but I couldn't have really gone all in with the position I was at now. and I still felt like probably yeah they're supposed to get converted you know at some level like that was just I mean that was drilled into me from so young and so I was beginning to feel a sense of fear for like oh am I ever gonna be able to like because it didn't feel right in part I grew up never um being very good at evangelism and we did evangelism we we went out and did track distribution like every week growing up. My dad was, we weren't just, I was like a missionary kid. We were on like missionary support to New York city. And so we would go hit the streets of downtown New York with gospel tracks. And my dad was so good at getting into these conversations with people and asking them like, if you were to die today, or do you know for sure where you would go? And I always felt guilty that I wasn't better at that because it felt like if I was more spiritual, If I was taking this more seriously, then I would have done that. And now I'm able to see that my intuition always felt icky about it because it is actually icky. It actually is a gross thing to be like, oh, I don't know you. I'm not in a relationship with you. I'd like to push my worldview onto you. Let's talk about death. It is very aggressive and also very superior to assume when you enter a relationship that They need something from you as opposed to maybe you need to learn something from them. None of that felt right. And yet within the doctrine of hell, believing that we had the answer and they needed to be saved, it was right. And then when it came to my own kids, I just couldn't square that circle. It never felt right. I was really happy to leave while my kids were still very young. And so they never, I've never pushed the gospel on my kids in that way. Well, I don't believe that that's even the gospel. I wouldn't say that, you know, that message, you know, believe in Jesus, accept him in your hearts you can go to heaven when you die is the gospel but i never so they they don't they'll they'll never have that experience of like hey i want you to become a christian because you know of of hell and heaven and this whole story so they they'll joke about hell they think it's funny that i wrote a book and i think that's wonderful

Flo: [00:29:00] yeah i i just we um we have a family chat yeah and i've about two, my two girls are, my two kids are in college and my, they're at the same school, the state university in Tennessee. And, and my oldest kid, they text our family chat chat and said, um, I was just proselytized to like on campus. And they were like, somebody came up to me and said like, do you know that you wouldn't go to hell if you died today? And, and Sage says, um, she, they said, I said, my mom's a priest and she doesn't believe hell is real. And then And the lady said, oh, honey, it's real. But Sage just laughed. She was like, I just thought it was so funny and just laughed. This is ridiculous. And I think there was another time, I can't remember the exact specifics, but someone knocked on their door and Sage answered and they tried to share the gospel with them. And Sage just said, nice verse. That was it.

Danny: [00:30:11] isn't it wild i mean for the three of us to have kids that aren't anxious about this um it's it's remarkable i i yeah i think that um that's a miracle of grace in my life that that didn't get uh sit down um i mean they've got you know anxiety in other places but to not have it around this God that is just really just an insecure prick at the end of the day who can't handle, which again, and we're in kids and this does all come out on the kids, but the direct line between the cruelty of our nation right now. And even as I heard you, Brian, talking about, you know, it's grace, you should be in hell. It's grace just to have another breath. That's absolutely connected to what the United States unleashes on the rest of the world, where Like, oh, really? Like you were bombed today? Well, you're lucky you're not in hell. And it's just so cruel. And it gets so violent and murderous so quickly. When you're gone.

Brian: [00:31:16] Even our own citizens, like how we view, I think, about our unhoused population. And we really struggle in our country with welfare of any kind. That the government would provide things. You can't just give somebody something. everything does have to be earned the way that we see it. Like even when there, you know, there needs to be a work requirement. If we're going to give unhoused people, you know, food or something, we're making them work, right? At some point, like you can't just, no, it's like, actually like people just need to eat. Like they shouldn't have to, no, like these are hungry people. We don't need requirements. I think grace for me, yeah. When you start, when you start with a baseline position that people deserve to be punished versus a baseline position that people just deserve love, care, connection, warmth. I do think that in fact changes how you interact with the world and just treat people and what kind of world we want to imagine for one another. And so I do believe you will imagine a pretty bleak, unforgiving, hellish world when you believe that that's what people deserve versus that, that love is what people deserve.

Flo: [00:32:25] Yeah. And I think it also is reflective on, it starts with even loving yourself and how that was a message that I received as a child that was wrong because the problem, I mean, this was like eighties, but I remember my youth group and eighties and nineties, my youth group or Sunday school being like the message of the world is that you need self-esteem, but you have plenty of self-esteem. Like the problem is you have too much self-esteem. Like I remember that message so explicitly, like you do not need to love yourself.

Brian: [00:32:55] I think I gave that message at some point.

Flo: [00:33:00] But like, of course you can't love other people if you hate yourself that much. Like that's just the hatred, the self-hatred, the hatred of others stems so much from this punitive God that would send. And you, you write about this. I think that was one of the most like compelling moments for me that that's incompatible with love your enemies. Like you talk about the statement of love your enemies, how God would tell us to do that. But God-

Brian: [00:33:26] No interest in doing that.

Flo: [00:33:27] Sends people to hell. Like I thought that was so, that was really, yeah, that was profound.

Brian: [00:33:31] You know what changes people. And it's grace, it's love, it's mercy that changes people. Like I think of that classic scene in Les Mis, right? Where, you know, you have this thief and the priest gives him bread. And like that is this moment where of transformation. That's when we're struck by grace, that is where transformation happens. It's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, like to put a proof text on it. And yet we believe that God is a punisher and that people deserve punishment for their wrongdoings. But like that's not how reconciliation happens. If God is a punisher, then God couldn't do the work of reconciliation. God doesn't reconcile God's enemies by punishing them, but by loving them. That's the whole point. And so I don't know how we have these different standards for how we're supposed to treat people. But then that does, in fact, then change. That does affect how we treat people as well. I think of even like our carceral system, which is incredibly punitive. And there's all kinds of data now, a growing body of research that says that, you know, rehabilitative restoration based programs work far better than punitive carceral programs. They have in countries that really focus on the people's redemption, recovery, restoration. They have lower, and I always mispronounce this word, recidivism, I want to say. Did I say that right?

Danny: [00:34:57] Thank you for trying.

Brian: [00:34:58] I don't know.

Flo: [00:34:59] Sounds good to me.

Brian: [00:35:00] Reservism rate, the rate of being reincarcerated, lower reincarceration rates. I should just go with that. And we have a very high reincarceration rate because we don't really focus on that. Somebody asked me in an interview recently, which I thought was a really interesting question. They were like, if you could reimagine hell and make it what you think it should be, what should it be? And I was like, whoa, I've never thought about that before. But I think that if there had to be something like hell, well, if based in God's character and even what we know about our own justice system and what leads to wholeness, what leads to flourishing, it should be more like a rehabilitation center, a purely punitive place. That's not where an image bearer should go. A never ending punishment is not fit for an image bearer of God. Somebody who's deserving of divine love, no, if that person is not fit for society, for the kingdom, cannot be in community in that way, then they should be in a space where they are being brought through a process. And by the way, it's not punishment that leads to the kind of change that we're looking for people to experience. That doesn't work. That hardens us. That makes us actually worse people. It is only love and grace and mercy and kindness that leads us into the kind of change that we want to experience. I was raised being told that like my bad behavior deserved immediate punishment, not natural consequences, but punishment. And that was a pathway that was supposed to be the pathway towards transformation. But what that actually does, you learn to cut off parts of yourself. Certainly you learn maybe some of the behavior will stop. Right. Because you learn how to suppress certain behaviors. but that is not how hearts change. And so this whole hell system is not fit for a God of love.

Flo: [00:36:51] Amen.

Brian: [00:36:52] Sorry. I was just ranting there for a minute.

Danny: [00:36:53] No, no, no. Here for it. The White Stripes song, You Don't Know What Love Is. It's, you don't know what love is. You do as you're told. And I always think of that. That song is so powerful in that. And yeah, Jack White writes about, I'm saying this because I want something better for you. Like, learn what love is, quit just obeying these rules and that, yeah, the God that would want to reduce us to rule keepers. Like, it's just, where is that ever compelling in real relationships? I would love to ask you about your dedication. Just out of the gate, especially in the context of children's spirituality, the dedication for the book, for my children, for my own inner child, and for the children still squirming anxiously in the pews. I think we've talked a little bit about your kids, and you're welcome to talk more about that. But I'm so curious, for your own inner child, like what is there? Jesus talks about getting back what's lost, you know, prophetic language, like what has been eaten by the locusts? Like, I'm going to restore. Like, just in your journey right now, What might have space to be part of you now that wasn't allowed to then?

Brian: [00:38:11] I am, through my parenting of my children, I often do feel like I'm reparenting myself. I have, I mean, I still, I can be quite punitive still. That is very much wired into my being. And those patterns were set for young. And it is still a battle that I'm working through. And I will find myself, I think I do mention in this in the book, at times when my kids are acting in a way that, you know, my parents would have called it rebellious or disobedient. Now you might say they're dysregulated or maybe, I don't know, they're just being kids, whatever. Like they're not listening to me in that particular instance because their brain can't focus on two things at the same time. Whatever's happening. I often do feel this thing rise up in me that comes from a few different places. One, I was told that like, this is what people deserve. I was parented this way. This is, you know, if I was acting like that as a kid, I would have been punished. And so it does feel like, well, it wouldn't be fair if they're not punished. Like I was punished for the behavior. And then also I was told, like, I remember even seeing parents out in public whose kids were being rambunctious in some particular way, or maybe not listening to them or disobeying their authority, authority was really important, right? Like not just the action that you did, whether the action caused harm, but actually if you were to disregard like the command of your authority, that alone was worthy of punishment because really had to respect those authority. And when parents weren't like protective of their authority, my parents would point out like, oh, they're, they're just like getting walked all over there. They're, this is their bad parents, basically. And I don't want to be a bad parent. So I still have this like feeling over my shoulder almost like, well, I can't just let my kids get away with that. That would make me a bad parent. Like what about my authority? They need to respect my authority. So I have this like visceral sort of they should be punished. They should respect my authority. I have it like rise up in me. And sometimes I still do act out of that space, but I often find that it provides a lot of ability to reflect on what's still going on in me and why I would feel that way. And I'm able to remind myself that they don't deserve punishment. And I didn't either. And so it gives me the opportunity to offer them something different, maybe starting with an apology, which I have to do frequently still. And that has been a really, over the last few years, it's been a very profound process that I'm still, you know, in process. I would have hoped that after like, oh, I don't know, like three or four years of doing this, like I'd be like really good at now. It's like, and now I no longer parent with any punishment. I just fully lean into connection. Um, but no, it doesn't always work like that. It has been an ongoing process, but I have seen growth and I have also, um, yeah, been able to, I think, offer myself some of what I, what I didn't exactly get. Um, and that has been, um, yeah, it has been healing. It does still make me sad. Like I get, I still feel a little sad for, you know, the fact that I was raised that way. I don't blame my parents that they were doing the best they could. And I think a lot of kids had it far worse. You know, this is a very common thing. I'm not like it wasn't exceptional in that way. But yeah, that has been healing for my inner child. And I think also even in my relationship with God and being able to receive God's love in a way that I do think it hits different when it's like I'm a worm, but God loves me anyway versus I don't believe that God loves me in spite of who I am anymore. I believe that I'm worthy of love.

Flo: [00:41:49] Yeah.

Brian: [00:41:52] And I am beginning to be able to stand 10 toes down on that.

Flo: [00:41:56] Yeah. That makes me think of that Willie James Jennings podcast that Danny, you shared with me years ago where it talks about, and he probably writes about this too, but this is where I heard it where he talks about the desire of God and the incarnation and the incarnation being about God wanting to be with God's people just because of God's love for humanity not because I've got to go down there and like become a stupid person and live with stupid people and and all the stuff that that's like the attitudes I've been raised with was like oh gosh God loved us so much that he became a person, you know, instead of like God's desire for humanity was so strong and compelling. That's what sent God into humanity. And I hear that in what you're saying as well. Yeah. And like my favorite thing when I tell the kids, you know, the creation story is at the end saying like, and what did God call you? And they're like, good. And I mean, that would be like, it's so wild. That's straight from scripture, but that would have been like, oh my gosh.

Brian: [00:43:12] I think I would have been deserving of death.

Danny: [00:43:17] A worm.

Flo: [00:43:17] A worm.

Danny: [00:43:20] I wanted, maybe the three of us can do this together maybe. What about a children's book where the worms are told they're people and they feel horrible about themselves? We're like people?

Brian: [00:43:36] They're terrible.

Flo: [00:43:37] No. Oh, man.

Danny: [00:43:42] And I, yeah, Brian, I hear you in that space, even just the journey of back to, to be allowed to still grow, to admit struggles, to not have to wear the pretense of, not that you don't strike me as having ever been real pretentious, but the pressures of presenting something on the outside, of going to staff meeting and saying, you know, kids got saved last night at dinner like it's it it really puts a damper on real communion yeah and to you know to be on the three of us at wherever we are in our parenting journeys and stuff like to be able to have that freedom to be i'm god's still making me too um in those spaces and that changing it from crime and punishment to new creation um that creation wasn't a a one-time event but it's still happening. Like just all those things are just so gentle and, um, so much more agency, uh, and dignity and respect. And it really comes from that shift. I think that you're talking about it's like, it's not punitive. Um, and maybe like, maybe God can't be punitive. Like the nature is so good and so merciful and so gracious

Brian: [00:44:53] That's where I've landed. Not even possible. Yeah. I, and that was a big shift for which still I think yes some people want God to be but well God is love but God is also just and they'll do that and what they don't realize I do believe God is just I just don't think justice is the same thing as punishment I think we conflate those two God's justice is restorative and does often include natural consequences I think that's just a very different thing from punitiveness I think yeah we struggle with that And I, there's a, something I included in the book, I was something I put on my social media a couple years ago. I asked a question, what would be different about your spirituality if you knew that there was no punishment in God whatsoever? And I remember when I thought of that question, it was for me, really, because I was coming to that belief and I was realizing that it was a hard thing to believe, but it was something I really wanted to be true. And it was also something that felt very true. And also, if we get our view of who God is from who Jesus is, Jesus never punishes anybody. And if, I mean, Jesus uses God's power only in one direction. It's only to heal. It's only to restore. I guess he cursed the fig tree so that one exception wasn't the person and you know that was a parable

Danny: [00:46:21] I mean the fig tree was asking for it

Brian: [00:46:29] no that was even an illustration of consequences that would come on people that refused to embrace God's love that was really what that was, was a warning no, Jesus uses God's power to heal and I Yeah, so I threw that out there. And people's answers were really quite moving. I included a few of them in the book. And I did. So that in some ways is the shift that I'm trying to help people with in the book. If you could maybe whittle it down. It is less about the existence of hell in some ways. And maybe even more about the very nature of God. Like, I don't think we can have powerful, the relationship with God that Jesus had. I don't think you can have that with the nature of punishing God.

Danny: [00:47:13] Yeah. that opens my mind to so many curiosities just even the like yeah that jesus could jesus never lived a day in fear of hell i mean and what the what maybe that's another thing to admire and take away from his life and yeah emulate it's just like This is a fearless life that knows love is what outlasts it all. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Brian: [00:47:47] Well, go ahead.

Flo: [00:47:49] Well, the end of your book talking about the way of love speaks so much to that. And again, my work with, helps me in my work with caregivers and parents who, especially deconstructed parents, I think, who don't know what to do about spirituality with kids and don't know, like, what am I supposed to do? Tell them about God? Ignore it? Like what, what, um, and they, these are folks that a lot of times are still wanting to come to church for that community and still, they just don't know how to hand that to their kids or share this with their children in a way that's not going to traumatize them. And now that's the fear. I feel like it's like shifted to from like, I don't want my kids to go to hell to, I don't want to create hell for my kids out of like Christianity. And some of that pendulum swing, I think has people being like, well, I'm not going to like, don't address it at all. Like don't invite them into any kind of faith or spirituality. And in my work and research, it's so evident and clear that spirituality is innate. And that doesn't mean Christian spirituality, but like spirituality is innate to children. I mean, it is there. Children are having their own experiences of God and the divine that we have no idea. Like we don't know what they're experiencing, but they're very real happening there. And I think you're talking about living into this way of life and way of love with Jesus is a great invitation to parents that is not that is not fearful. And and to say, like, we still honor a child's spirituality and that this thing exists. Like, we're not going to cut that off and neglect that part of a child either just because of the possibility of trauma by this unhealthy way. Like, and I think that I wonder what you would maybe have to say to that. And in that space.

Brian: [00:49:43] I love what you just said. I, I will say, I don't feel like I'm an expert on this because in some ways I feel like I learned such a bad paradigm that it is easy to do what you just said a minute ago, which is like, wow, I just don't even want to go there because like, I just feel like this whole thing will, will just screw them up in all kinds of ways. So I understand that impulse. But I've seen also what you just said, the innate spirituality of kids. And so how I've kind of approached it, and this is not prescriptive. I don't know that I have this figured out. I think I could probably do better in a lot of ways. But I try to ask them questions, and I try to be curious about what they're seeing. And so I will occasionally ask them if it comes up, you know, what do you think God is like, you know, and I want them to just express what they are experiencing of the divine in the natural world from their own intuition. And those are usually pretty good, interesting conversations. And then I think the other thing that I've just come to really believe is that you can't control people and who they become, but you can model the behavior that you want to see. That's really the best thing that you can do in any relationship is not to, you can't pressure somebody into becoming something, you can try to control them and you might change some surface behaviors, but that doesn't actually make people's hearts bloom and love in the way that you're wanting. But when you model something, so I try to model connection. What I really want my kids is, for me, spirituality, as I understand it, is to be connected to yourself and to other people and ultimately to God, which I think the way that we connect to God is primarily by connecting to ourselves and to other people. And so if my kids are deeply connected to themselves and have deep, meaningful relationships with others, I kind of don't really care what they believe theologically. That being said, I would love it if they got an interest in that sort of thing. But to me, and maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. I'm not saying I've got to figure it out, but it almost feels like a hobby at this point. Like it's like a way of talking about something that's really niche and that I just know it's not going to be for everybody.

Flo: [00:51:55] Totally.

Brian: [00:51:55] And I like to nerd out on it. But like, if my kids don't become like, big God people, I'm not that worried about that. If I, if I believe them to be connected to what matters, and to love. And there's just a lot of names for it. You know, I, my girlfriend's not a Christian. And, you know, we were in church the other day, and I think Christ was getting thrown around a lot, like the word. And I was just like, I don't know if it's helpful or not, but like whenever you hear him say Christ, just like substitute love. And like what is being said here will probably connect basically. And I just think there's a lot of ways of talking about it. And I do for me, Jesus exemplifies and embodies that in a way that is special, that is unique, that I feel captured by. But I am not, you know, I have no need to be superior and to say that that's the only way to access the kind of love that we were made for.

Flo: [00:52:57] Yeah.

Danny: [00:52:58] Gregory Boyle, in one of his books, writes about, do you know who he is?

Brian: [00:53:02] Yeah.

Danny: [00:53:02] The Homeboy Ministries in LA.

Brian: [00:53:04] I love him.

Danny: [00:53:04] He writes about driving through Indiana, I think it was Indiana, and seeing a billboard that says, Jesus, the only way to God. And Boyle wrote something to the effect of, they better not tell Jesus. That's not what he's saying about salvation and love. And, you know, again, reduce it to his prayer and you don't go to hell. I was thinking about the hand raising thing you did last night of like, how old were you? Was hell part of it? And then another question would be, how many times have you been saved? Or how many times were you saved before you were 10? I was like, I won best Christian attitude. my senior superlative there was this girl who would make fun of me and walk up and like rub her finger on my skin and go i was like so squeaky clean and i was like the first to every altar call because i thought i was horrible inside and just those phases of being saved over and over and over again

Brian: [00:53:59] it's so funny because like we were taking it so seriously right and look where we've ended up and it's not And I think sometimes it is the people that really take that to heart. Like, hell, it was like the rapture. You know, just this last week, you probably saw a rapture talk. And, you know, people are all, by the way, it's rescheduled.

Flo: [00:54:28] Missed it. Yeah, I know.

Brian: [00:54:31] It didn't happen, but they said we were using the wrong calendar. It was a calendar issue. And so, you know, not Gregorian, but the Boolean calendar. Based on that, it's October 7th and 8th. So anyway, Rapture is rescheduled.

Flo: [00:54:44] Still time.

Danny: [00:54:46] Thanks for working this in.

Brian: [00:54:49] Well, I saw a video of a girl who was just like panicking about it, you know? And I found a lot of the Rapture stuff to be quite silly. It's just so silly, right? So I was making jokes. And I think that's totally fine. We can make jokes about bad theology. We should be able to make jokes about it. But this person who was really in it, who was like believing it, was having a panic attack because she was like, I just don't understand how all these people are saying this is going to happen in just a couple of days. We're all going to be zapped up. And like, what about my kids? Like, what about my relationship with my kids? Like, are we all going to go? Are we going to end up in the same place? Will they even be my kids up there? Like, even if we all go to heaven, like, you know, like what, what I only have a couple more days to enjoy them in this way. And like, I don't know, I'm freaking out, man. Is nobody else freaking out about this? And I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about that, but the thought that what that really stuck with me was just like, She was taking it seriously what they were telling her. And sometimes the people who are saying these things are not thinking through the implication of like telling a kid about hell. Like some of us kids are going to take that shit seriously.

Flo: [00:55:53] Yeah.

Brian: [00:55:53] And I did. And I responded to every altar call like hell was on the line.

Flo: [00:55:57] Yeah.

Brian: [00:56:00] It is almost like there's people who stay with it and it's almost like they're able to compartmentalize the emotional impact of the shit that they actually are saying and believing. And those of us who actually really wrestled with it deeply, I think usually deconstruction, this is not people who didn't take their faith seriously enough. We rode that thing all the way down.

Danny: [00:56:25] And I think another interesting part of it, I think the three of us, I think, I don't know, I'm curious, Flo, if you would agree with this, or if it was part of your formation, but like, Brian, I think definitely you and I, we were also really trained on how to be hated. And so like you, these people who are taking it very seriously are also being told you'll be persecuted for this. And it's like they got us ready in a sense to say these things that we learned in taking it seriously. And there was an emotional preparation to be hated for it in a sense. I don't know. I was thinking about that. I've listened to you even on other podcasts and your energy and your fire for it all. And just that, like, even that's part of the formation, but it's so beautiful when it becomes that, that committed to love in the world. I find it. That's funny humorous that you were trained for.

Brian: [00:57:21] Sometimes I'm like, why am I still talking about all this stuff? Oh, I know why. Because literally from birth, I was told that my life had to count for eternity and I needed to be on mission because only what's done for Christ will last. And it's hard to shake some of that. Um, so while that means something different for me now than it did, it is still hard to just be like, oh, I guess I'll just like get a project management job or something.

Flo: [00:57:47] Yeah.

Brian: [00:57:49] It's, it's a tough thing to shake that eternal, you know, and I'm not saying that there's not also probably some low level narcissism in there. Like there is for anybody who's spent time as a pastor probably, uh, but I think that Yeah. The hero complex. I don't know. I do think about it sometimes. Like, why can't I shut up about this and just like be normal for five minutes? I understand. You get it. You get it.

Flo: [00:58:15] Yeah. We've talked about that with like, why can't we just go get other jobs? And Danny's been like, we'll still keep talking about this at those other jobs. Like it's,

Danny: [00:58:22] I would be like trying to overthrow management at Subway. Like, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. We're looking for the injustice and how to take it out.

Flo: [00:58:33] Yeah.

Danny: [00:58:35] Well, thank you so much. I think we're coming up on an hour. Flo, did you want to add anything else?

Flo: [00:58:40] Yeah, I know we're coming up. I have maybe one question that I would love to hear you. We've talked a little bit about kind of your spirituality as a child, But I wonder if there is anything about God or the divine that you recall from your childhood that was like nudging you towards this path that was like pushing against those voices that you were hearing that was saying like you are a worm. You're a little sinner. That was like welcoming you into love and like what that might have felt like or where it was or what that experience was.

Brian: [00:59:21] You know, the name of my sub stack is beloved. And that's, you know, one of my favorite words and concepts. And I, you know, I think now that true spirituality doesn't start with the awareness of our deservingness to be punished, but of our belovedness. And beloved also was what my dad would call the congregation in his preaching. Like, like in his preaching, like, and beloved, the word said, he would say it like, you know, in any given sermon, 30 times probably call us beloved. And I still think about that. And I do believe that that was always his heart. And my dad is actually a really loving guy. And I, it makes me sad that he has some of these punitive beliefs about God. that are just really ingrained in his worldview that are pretty hard to tear out. But I also did hear about a God of love. It just stood beside this God of punishment. As a result, I think love was transformed into something that often didn't feel a lot like love. I think that if God is love and God can be a punisher, then love can include punishment, which means our love can include punishment. It has actually twisted the very meaning of love in many ways. But there was still love. And I did feel often that that heart behind it all. And it was like just standing with contradictions. And so it is nice to be able to strip away and realize that, yeah, we never actually needed the punishment for the love to be real. But the love was always there. And I do think that it was there even early on. And I still even feel it from my dad. And I believe that, I mean, yeah, I'm a universalist, man. So I believe my dad is moving towards love in some way as well, while he holds on to some of these beliefs that nothing is going to stop that advance of love. I want to believe that. That's what faith looks like for me. Love will win and overcome all of that, you know? But yeah, I think that's all.

Flo: [01:01:23] Yeah. Thank you.

Danny: [01:01:25] And then I don't know if you've listened to the podcast yet, but we wear our collars because we end each podcast with confession. So just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Flo: [01:01:34] So prepare. What would you...

Danny: [01:01:37] We can absorb. We have powers. I don't know if you do that. We have special powers. Anyways, just kidding. Thank you so much. Great to see you this morning.

Flo: [01:01:46] And yes, reminder that this is Brian Recker, author of Hellbent, a book that I feel like it's funny saying this, give it to all your friends and family, but that's how I feel.

Brian: [01:01:57] I'm glad you feel that way. I wanted it to... And there's also a study guide, by the way. The book doesn't have a built-in study guide. Like some books have like questions at the end of chapters. It doesn't have that. But on my website, brianrecord.com or at the link in my Instagram bio, there's a link as well. You can find a free study guide, just a PDF that you can download that has each like questions for discussion or personal reflection for each chapter. I think it would be, yeah, a cool thing to do with a group of people, especially, you know, for some people, this is going to be confirmation of what they've been feeling and believing for a long time. For other people, it could be quite a paradigm shift. And so I'm excited to hear about those people that maybe for the first time are encountering this kind of idea. And I tried to walk you through it. So hopefully I did a good job of people that are maybe encountering this and need to, because I think it's one thing, and just really quick, I know we're about done, but like what I do in the last third of the book is for a lot of people, once you say, well, yeah, I don't think God's a punisher. I don't think this is a hell. It's like, wait, what do I do with Jesus? Why did Jesus die? Why did Jesus live? Like, what is this whole story about? Like we, punishment was so woven into our Christianity that it is really hard to just, that's like taking the Jenga block out that is very load bearing, you know, it does seem like the whole tower is going to come down. And so I'm hopeful that we can not get like all the answers in place and new dogmas and a new rigid system in place. But I think to begin to learn how to embrace some curiosity and your own intuition around these things, but to still hold on to Jesus if that's something that you want to do. Yeah, I'm hopeful for that.

Danny: [01:03:37] Yeah, that is, yeah, that's what I was going to try to throw that in too. Just like, it's also this like really beautiful thing to hand to somebody to say, this is what I believe about Jesus in a real disarming way, even that, you know, like taking ourselves out of like, I'm going to convince you of it, but just like, Hey, here's a book about why we don't think hell is what you've been told. And if you want to stay around for the end, who we think Jesus is.

Flo: [01:04:00] And Danny and I have talked about this. Oh, so sorry. That there's this need that people have a lot of times like for better or for worse to be given permission to kind of believe the things that they intuitively believe or want to believe. And, and it's, it's sometimes I feel like, Ooh, that's a lot of power. I don't want that. But like people, being a pastor and saying you're allowed to believe this is really powerful for people a lot of the times.

Brian: [01:04:32] Yeah. It's almost like, I mean, I hate to say it, but this is how we've been conditioned and socialized that we need like a white guy with a degree to tell us that we're allowed to believe something with a collar, ideally, honestly.

Flo: [01:04:41] Not a lady, not a lady. We're getting there.

Brian: [01:04:50] Yeah. And so I, I understand that that, like I carry that privilege and I want to break that system. And I try to point to a lot of different diverse voices, even both within the book and also in my other work. But I also know that one of the things that I can do for people who were socialized that way is to try to point them towards being allowed to have permission to listen to themselves. And I mean, these are things that indigenous people have been saying for a long time, that queer people have been saying for a long time, but we were raised where we're not, we're not supposed to listen to those people. And so it is like a system that did gatekeep us from being able to listen to the voices that were trying to liberate us. And so if I have a privileged voice, I want to try to enter that cacophony of liberation.

Flo: [01:05:26] Amen.

Danny: [01:05:26] Amen. Yeah. Thank you.

Brian: [01:05:34] Thank you. Thanks for having me guys. It's so fun. Yeah. Really good to see you again. Yeah.

Flo: [01:05:40] Really good. Really fun conversation.

Danny: [01:05:45] Thank you for listening to another episode of Blessed Uncertainty. Special thanks to Kyle Lock for Producing,  His brother Adam Lock for our logo, and J. Lind for our theme song.