Episode 2 Transcript: Children’s Liberation Theology with R.L. Stollar

Flo: Welcome to Blessed Uncertainty, where Faith is a wide and wondering path. We're your hosts, Danny and Flo, and this is a space for holy curiosity. Questions are sacred, and faith is a process of letting go of answers. Come wonder with us. Our guest today is Ryan Stoller, our L Stoller, author of a Kingdom of Children, a Liberation Theology.

He is a liberation, theologist, and wonderful human being and we are so excited to have him on the podcast today.

Danny: Ryan, welcome to Blessed Uncertainty. Thankful to be with you this morning.

Ryan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Danny: Same, you too. Two, I'm gonna jump in kind of at the end of your book, as sort of a gateway to our conversation.

I think these ideas are gonna be new to a lot of folks and you describe yourself in the book as radical, but not extreme and conservative. Conservative in the sense of recognizing we need institutions, but progressive, the sense of needing that the systems within need to change. Can you talk a little bit about that space?

Ryan: Yeah. There's obviously a tension there., I feel that our world is a world that is very. Abusive towards children. And so to treat children in a way that is humane and sees their humanity and respects their autonomy as human beings will be seen as radical. I don't think it should be radical. Yeah. I think that treating children as fellow images of God as human beings should be really basic.

I mean, I think that really just comes down to something as simple as the golden rule that we teach children in Sunday school. You know, treating chil other people, including children, and the way that you would wanna be treated. But I think that there's a lot of systems and attitudes in place in our world that make that very difficult.

And so it does come across as really extreme sometimes when we suggest seeing children through the lens of their dignity and full humanity. And I think that unfortunately radical. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that ties to some of the, debates we see in our, contemporary spaces about, you know, the role of family and parental rights.

, there's a lot of institutions we have in place to, that are supposed to be there to help and support families and children., but the way those are often applied is done in a way that's counterproductive or harmful. And so that's the, where I see the tension between being conservative and liberal, because I think that we do need to make sure we have support systems, but at the same time, those systems actually need to be supportive, so.. And that, I think that makes landing somewhere on the political spectrum a little more difficult because oftentimes you can see these harmful systems and attitudes all across the political spectrum.

Danny: You're right about kids being reduced to political fodder, and just how marketable and profitable it is to, say that this is this side or this side rather than listening, I think to children and one another.

In that golden rule space, you talk about, just the world that's anti-child. Can you speak a little bit to what is a children's liberation theology in a world that is so committed to being anti-child?

Ryan: Yeah. Well, children's Liberation Theology is a approach to thinking about how we use and approach God in the Bible, in our world today.

I think a lot of the times in the spaces that hold the power and the ability to control, you know, where money goes or what decisions are made, you know, there's a lot of. Emphasis on children needing to be obedient and submissive and be seen and not heard. And so in that world, I think it's really important that there is a strong message and, that children are not just objects or property of adults.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: , that we need to see them as fellow human beings. And we need to create space for them to be able to figure out who they are, who they want to be, what their voices are, and not just require them to follow the path led up by adults. And so, children's Liberation Theology is really focused on how can we think about God and then the Bible in a way that opens up those spaces and creates the.

Freedom for children to explore their own spirituality and their own voice and how they want to be in relationship with those same things got in the battle.

Flo: I'm so curious about, how, like, what prompted you on this journey of children's liberation theology? I know, for so many of us who grew up in the church, we grew up under what you just described as you should be seen and not heard, submissive, obedient, all of these things.

And, it's been so revolutionary and radical even though it shouldn't be. When I, for just personally when I kind of wrestled with these ideas and, and especially trying to convey those. To other people. So like you were saying, it's, it, it seems radical, but it shouldn't be. And I feel the same way in that it feels like it, it should be, it should be common knowledge now.

It should be more widespread, but it's such a niche. Like children's spirituality is still so niche, like it's not, it wasn't even something that was addressed in my, progressive academic theological education. So how, how did you come into this? How did you get started? Kind of think on this, on this path?

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I came across it pretty sideways., I was raised in an evangelical home. I was homeschooled, kindergarten through high school graduation., in college I went to a small liberal arts college, that was also evangelical. And I had a classmate that randomly gave me a copy of Gustavo Gutierrez's, theology of Liberation

Flo: Uhhuh.

Danny: That'll do it.

Ryan: And yeah, yeah., I was an evangelical at the time, but, I just absolutely loved the book. I loved its emphasis on not just talking and thinking, which is what we did at the college I was at, and actually trying to make the world a better place. So even though it was progressive, it dovetailed a lot with what I was reading at the time.

I was reading a lot of Bonhoeffer. So this idea of, you know, a costly faith, the faith that actually demands I change how I live my life and how I treat other people, that was really attractive to me. So that, that's always been in the back of my mind., and then when I became an adult, I started an organization and a website called Homeschoolers Anonymous.

Flo: Hmm.

Ryan: . I, I had a relatively positive homeschooling experience, but a lot of my friends and peers did not. And so when I became an adult, I wanted to, share their stories. And so I created Homeschoolers Anonymous and that eventually became a nonprofit organization. We created curricula for homeschooling communities on child abuse prevention and mental health issues.

And as I was doing that work, I wanted to become better equipped to help, you know, homeschool alumni and the communities. And so I went back to school and got a master's in child protection. And while I was getting that master's, I was just repeatedly struck with the fact that so much of what I was learning were the best practices for, child development and child protection.

They were all constantly in diametric opposition to what I grew up with., being taught were the right way to do those things. Not just the right way, but like the only way and the holy way, such that if you did things any differently, it would not just be, you know, counterproductive, but it would be in rebellion against God's established way of how to do family.

, and so that made me think, you know, there has to be a different way that we can think about God in the Bible, such that the way we do child development and child protection in religious spaces is not controlling and abuse of like how I grew up with, but was empowering and liberating., and of course you might see right there all also my, you know, light bulb went off and I was like, liberation theology.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Like I know there's these different types of liberation theology like you have. Basically one for any sort of marginalized group you can think of.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: And I was like, well, children experience a lot of oppression. There must be one for children., so I started researching it online., at the time I could only find one book.

, I was, a book written in 1991 by Janet Pece, called Suffer the Children. That was it that I could find., at that time, like her book was on Amazon and like there were no reviews, there were no journal articles about it. Oh. Like, I couldn't find anything about her. Wow., she, I mean, Janet Pece is actually a pseudonym.

, PECE means child. So, I've reached out to the publisher to try to get ahold of her, like they're the ones that told me the pseudonym. And, so it was a mystery, but her book was like super powerful and in my mind. Mm-hmm., and so I wanted to. Think about and dwell up that more., and so that's what got me started.

I started writing about that in 2015., and then in 2023 I wrote, my book, the Kingdom of Children., I just recently found out that there was another book written in 1991 too, by a man named, Joseph Grassy. He's a Catholic theologian. His book is called Children's Liberation., so both he and Janet Pece were thought about this idea at the exact same time, prior to which no one had been writing about it, like they're the ones that started it.

, so yeah, it's a very newish and underdeveloped field. There's a lot more people writing about it, in the last decade, which is awesome. Yeah., Craig Neeson has been doing some great work. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Out of Barbara Theological Seminary, and Rebecca Stevens, Walter. A musician, she's been doing some great work on, intergenerational worship.

You know, bringing adults and children together and creating practices where they can worship and learn together in ways that children are find welcoming and accessible. So, Hmm. You know, not just requiring children to come into the service and listen to an adult sermon, but Right.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Thinking about rearranging the whole thing such that everyone can participate.

, and that helps not just children, but of course people that learn differently., people that might not just wanna sit for a sermon and listen for two hours. So that really, mm. I think of children as a baseline. When you create a world that's accessible for children, it becomes accessible for all people.

Flo: Mm-hmm. Amen.

Ryan: So that's kind of a roundabout way. Yeah.

Flo: No, great. Yeah., and that, that. One of the, one of the questions I have for you, which is kind of perfect segue, is, you know, liberation theologies for marginalized people groups., kind of a key part of that is the people within those groups themselves speaking on behalf of, of their own group.

Like instead of someone else coming and implementing a theology or saying, this is what, what's fair, what you should think, or all of those things., but I know there's probably some unique challenges with children and how, how might that look different than doing liberation theology with other groups?

I was curious, curious about that. Yeah.

Ryan: Well, I mean, what you said is really important., so for those who aren't so familiar with liberation theology, like kind of the ideas that, it's about enabling and empowering. A marginalized people group to, you know, think about and engage God and the Bible and the world and the relationships with all those, on their own terms with their own agency in the ways that they want to.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: And so, you know, it's really important that, you know, for example, there's Black Liberation Theology, that started with James Cone in the United States. Mm-hmm. And, you know, black Liberation Theology is, not just about, how we think about black people and their relationship to God, but actually letting them lead that process, realizing that Right.

You know, as white people, like we don't control. Yep. Who God is. Like people have the right to approach religion and the world on their own terms. Yeah. And so, you know, white people can think about. Those issues. But ultimately, black Liberation theology has to be something that is done by black people because they're the ones that have the right to that narrative and Yep.

They have the right to dictate what that looks like. And you see that in the diversity of liberation theologies because, one liberation Theolog I really like is Ada Maria Isasi Diaz, and she writes, Mujerista Theology, which is for Latin American woman, and she specifically called her theology Mujerista and not just Latin liberation theology.

'cause she wanted it to be distinct from what Gustavo Gutierrez did.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: She felt like his project, which was really important, was not inclusive of women in those cultures. And so she really wanted to create space for Latin American women to do that theology on their own terms too. So. With children's liberation theology, it's a little bit, I think, more difficult, but also very similar in the sense that in our faith communities and religious organizations today, we don't really have the spaces and systems set up where we would be able to empower children to do a liberation theology at the moment.

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: , you know, there are certainly are some communities that do have those spaces and I wanna recognize that there are a lot of, faith communities I've met through my work that are doing this work, that are creating those spaces that are creating, and, you know, helping children learn the tools and skills they need to kind of be able to step into places of leadership and.

Step into their agency., I think that one of the difficulties with this is that, and a reason why a lot of people kind of hesitate when they want to think about liberating children theologically or in any sort of way is, they think, well, children can't do that. They don't know how to do that. It's, it's above their pay grade in a sense.

, and I think that a lot of that, like, well, it's true to some extent, a lot of it is that when people think about, you know, quote unquote liberating children, they just think that you're like putting a child behind the wheel of a car and saying, drive. Right? Which like, no, you shouldn't do that. Like, that's not just dangerous.

Like it's, it's actually abusive to the child, right?

Flo: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: Like that would be inappropriate. It's not inappropriate in the sense that a child couldn't do it. Like if you gave them a lot, you know, months of training, at some point they do get those months of training on learn how to do it., but that is when you're doing that carefully, teaching a child how to do thing, helping them gather the skills and the tools that they don't have, which is called scaffolding and teaching, like helping children approach a big topic by breaking it down into small pieces so that they don't just get overwhelmed, but that they actually gain mastery, slowly and, and gradually over time.

But, so we don't have those kind of, that scaffolding in place in the lumbar faith communities. And so we don't have that. It does seem like an impossibility, but that's, I think, something that we as adults need to realize because we are the ones that have put a lot of the barriers and obstacles in the way of children.

Flo: Hmm.

Ryan: , we're denying them a lot of opportunities and, a lot of spaces where they could be learning those things. And so we as adults, I think there's two parts to child Liberation theology. One part is for adults. Like the first stage is that we have to realize that we're excluding children, that we're alienating them, that we are, not seeing them for who they can be and for their potential.

, we're not allowing them to participate. And so that's kind of the part that my book is primarily addressing., trying to get adults to get out of that space. And then of course, the second part is we have to bring children into the process. 'cause I do think that just like how Black Liberation Theology would be in authentic if white people were leading it, like child liberation theology ultimately has to be something that children are involved with participating.

And then I think ultimately leading themselves. Yeah. But of course that. It is a gradual process. If we just threw children a bunch of liberation theology books, we probably wouldn't get there., so that's obviously not the way to go about it, but, but I do think that second stage is important., that's why in my book, you know, each chapter ends with trying to come up with discussions and activities that adults and children can do together.

, because I do think that's super important.

Flo: Right. And it's not, I, yeah, I appreciate that. How it's not expecting a child to do theology just as like a miniature version of adult theology, like it's going to look completely their own. They're not just, I hear this over and over again in the children's spirituality space, like children are not just deficient adults.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Flo: Like they're their own whole person. And to expect them to do, theology like an adult, even if you think you're inclu being inclusive or helping in that way, that that's, I appreciate in your book how you talk about letting children be children and

Ryan: mm-hmm.

Flo: Not giving them theologies and ideas that are too big for them to hold.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where the scaffolding comes in and it's really important, like not overwhelming children. I think that applies to just about any big subject, you know, when you think about how would you talk to children about death or how do you talk to them about. Genocide, you know, how do you talk to them about what's going on with immigration right now?

Like, those are some really big, scary topics and depending on how do you approach them with children, it'll either be overwhelming or traumatizing or it can actually be, you know, empowering to them. So the approach is really important.

Danny: When you were talking about homeschooling and, and one of the statistics in your book that blew my mind is there are two states, only two states that require background checks for homeschooling parents., I think of my, I was homeschooled for two years. I don't know. It was either two or 70. I don't know.

It felt, I think it was two, but it felt like 70. And,

Ryan: it's hard to know sometimes.

Danny: It's hard to know. It was sixth and seventh grade, spent a lot of time watching a video by myself., I started a sports newspaper that I sold to the people in the church. That's what I did in life, homeschool time. Anyways, I think about the objectification of children and even that, that debate over the government can't tell us we are safe or unsafe for our kids.

And then, you know, the government saying, well, parents can't be trusted without our involvement. And do they belong to the state? Do they belong to the parents? How do we, and I, I think you've spoken to this, but what is that way out of objectifying children so that we see what's good for them, ask what's good for them, and don't think of them as our possessions or, or property.

Ryan: Hmm. Yeah, I think that, I mean, that's a, you know, a huge question like who do children belong to? Who should be the ones responsible for 'em? Right., you know, I think obviously the number of answers, like the evangelical homeschoolers think that children belong to the parents., they will hedge a little bit by saying that they ultimately think children belong to God, but,

Flo: right.

I was gonna say that

Danny: tomato-tomato.

Ryan: Yeah. I, I, I refer to it as like, children aren't property, they're rental property, which is somehow better. Like they're being rented by God to the parents for the time being, which isn't really better, but,, and then of course, you know, some people think that children belong to like the community or the government.

, and then there's the more. They're rare in the controversial one of children just belonging to themselves.

Flo: Hmm.

Ryan: And I think that's the answer, but that doesn't really answer some of the other questions, of course. Like, who is still responsible for them? Who is the one that's looking after them, who's making sure that they're not being abused?

Who's making sure they get, you know, they're their basic needs met. Because as much as we talk about, or I talk about liberating and empowering children, like, it's also equally true that children are very vulnerable and dependent., I talk in my book about this, like, children are probably like the most vulnerable and dependent in the human kingdom.

Like most other animals, like, like giraffes, you know, the second they're born, they get up and walk around like. They can, you know, see, and generally, like they can observe their environment. Like human children aren't like that. Like, you know, they're, they take. A couple years before they can, you know, fully walk and be kind of more observant.

They rely on, their support networks a lot more. And so, you know, that is certainly something that's really important to keep in mind. But at the same time, we have to be thinking about how do we start that scaffolding, how do you start, you know, from the time that they're very young and start building up to this point where they can become, you know, fully independent and autonomous.

, and that certainly is a process and I think that's a process of, you know, not controlling them to the point that they get to where, you know, adults want them to be. But empowering them at each stage to figure out, you know, how do I do the things that I want to do? How do I want to develop myself?

Danny: I think of you quote Isaiah 11 and just that. That this, the heavenly kingdom, a child will lead us to, that following instead of controlling, space, which is so much more joyful but less efficient.,

Ryan: yes. Yeah, it's not easy. Certainly. I think that's a lot of the, when you, when people think of liberation as radical, I think they're often thinking it as something that's like done very simply and easily.

Like you flip a switch or something, but it's not like that. You know, this is actually, it's way more involved than neglectful parenting. It's way more involved in authoritarian parenting. Like those, those are the systems that actually are just kind of flipping the switch off a lot of the time., when you neglect children.

You know, you're not giving them the time and energy that they need to develop. And then when you're being an authoritarian, you're kind of usually just applying the same response to all these different diverse experiences that children have. And so, you know, both of those are really creating systems and shortcuts rather than approaching each experience of the child as, you know, different or unique and requiring maybe a different response.

So it's actually in my mind, you know, the most, involved and dedicated of the different ways to approach children.

Danny: And you and Flo and I, I think Flo, I'm taking your question, is that okay? You mentioned, you know, not just handing children. Liberation theology books. But then ironically, the Bible, in a sense is a children children's liberation theology book.

And so the way you write about centering children, both as theologians and also as the stories that they, you know, in the stories that the children, you Yeah. This idea that so often when a child speaks in scripture, they're risking their own life., like, can you speak to how the Bible can be that children's liberation theology book for the, for us and and for the kids?

Ryan: Yeah. That's a super important and heated question because of course, a lot of people think that, you know, the Bible contains some very, you know, inappropriate stories for children. There's a lot of violence, there's a lot of, there's rape, there's sexual abuse. There's a lot of very difficult situations that, as we were talking about earlier, that without scaffolding.

You know, a child reading some of these stories, like it can really traumatize them, it can scare them, it can mess up their understanding of what healthy relationships are, what healthy sexuality is., I don't know about you both, but like, as an evangelical kid, I was required to read through the Bible, you know, in a year, several times.

, my parents didn't do that with me. Like, we just did that as part of our homeschool thing. Like every morning we had like 30 minutes or an hour, we had to just read straight through the bible genesis to Revelation, like no context, like so, you know, not to get geographic, but like I hit Ezekiel before I ever got sex education.

So, you know, there's a few chapters in there that are pretty wild., and. That was very strange to come across without not having any idea of what was going on.

Flo: In the meantime, they're banning books that are actually explaining to children like, what's going on.

Ryan: Yeah. So I, I mentioned that just because like, you know, a lot of people that, I know and that, are interested in a subject would be kind of, they would be a little shocked or surprised to think of like the Bible as a child liberation theology text.

And I do get that. I do get resistance and pushback sometimes on that, but I think that it is really important that we don't, you know, shelter and isolate children from like the world in reality at the same time too. And so I think the Bible can be, you know, a text of child liberation and child protection because it can be something that we approach with children together in a way that is.

Scaffold and helps them realize, you know, these are things that happen in our world. These are things that have happened in the past. These are the way that adults have responded that have made the situation worse or made the situation better. And then, you know, and then when you experience these things today, or other children in your life do because they're going to, because they're things that happen over and over and over again.

This is how you should respond. And so I think if you actually not just throw the Bible at children, not just make them read through it with no context, but if you actually approach the text with children as you know, learning partners, and help them think through those issues and those very horrible things that happen in our world, then it can actually be, protective and liberating for kids because then they can use those lessons, those stories, whether you wanna see them as, you know, real or fictional.

Like, in my mind it doesn't matter because there's still things that happen. And so learning how to approach those and how to respond today to the same sort of situation is really vital to helping children be protected and liberated.

Flo: That's really helpful. Really, really helpful, especially for someone who talks about the Bible with young children and.

We use, we use Godly play, which I know that you wrote about in your book., I think when I took the job as a children's pastor, I think I said I couldn't do it if it were a job where I was telling a child, this was before I ever knew about children's Liberation theology or really any liberation theology.

But I, I knew I couldn't be in a job that just told kids, this is what you should think, or this is what this means for you. And so the appeal for me with Godly play so much about, children, the meaning making that children are making their own meaning and I think you wrote, a line about that children are creating their own theologies, when they experience like the Bible in more playful ways. And I, I wondered what you, if you could talk a little bit maybe about that, about what it looks like for a child to make their own theology.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. That was probably my favorite chapter in the book to write. So in that chapter I talk about the importance of play.

, and I think that play is not just something that's fun, though. It is, of course, but I think that it's also something that's theological and spiritual., so I, I start that chapter by talking about how, you know, the Christian God is the God of play. Like I think that creation itself is an act of play.

, I think that, a lot of the stories in the Bible demonstrate that God is not just dry and serious, but actually has, you know, a sense of wonder, a sense of humor, all these different things that aren't necessary that are simply there, I think because that's how God likes to be and that's what God enjoys.

, and so I think that when. Children are playing. It is reflecting a really important part of God. And I think it serves a number of different functions, that are, you know, and besides being, you know, something that's enjoyable, I think that play is also something that's very restorative and healing as at the same time, in the book I talk about how, you know, a lot of, trauma therapists will use play, to help children process, difficult experiences.

They have, children themselves actually just will automatically do this. Like, if they have experienced some sort of trauma, they often will recreate it in their play, like with their, with their toys. You know, that's a, a generally productive way. Like children also will recreate trauma in their play with other kids.

That's a, you know, a, damaging thing that children can do to other children. But that is not. Well, it's wrong. It's not abnormal. Like that's just a way that children respond to, abuse or traumas. They honestly, it's not just children. I mean, adults do this too. Like one way that we process our negative or difficult experiences is for some reason we often recreate those experiences.

, it can be done in good ways, like with exposure therapy. Like if you have experienced PTSD over a certain like location or a food or something, like your therapist can guide you in, you know, helpful in healing ways to be able to go back to that location or have that food or smell a smell and not just be triggered and, lose your ability to function for the week.

Of course, you could also recreate those trauma, experiences in ways that are also damaging., and so. I think that's just points to how, you know, what children do in their recreation, can be something that's very powerful, in both good and bad ways. And so, play is something that's very serious.

, it can be this wonderful healing experience for them, but it also can be something that can be, furthering some stress. So we, I think it's something to respect.

Danny: And when you talk about the trauma that. Can be healed or, or you know, obviously, or re-triggered. But, but this idea of play leading us into these places of healing, it reminds me of the Christology in your book and this idea of the God child, the anger of God being more the God child's righteous indignation than the Father God anger.

, and the, the idea that the one who will return to judge is the God child. Can you, yeah. Talk a little bit more about that. I, I was just blown away.

Flo: It makes me tear up again. Just hearing it, hearing you say it again. Yeah. Beautiful.

Ryan: Yeah, definitely. And that's an idea I certainly got from Janet's book.

, that also was just, also blew my mind and gave me shivers. And, so yeah, she talks about how we., talk so much about Jesus as the son of God. And we talked about how, what that means in terms of his authority and power, but she points out that, you know, Jesus is not just the son of God, he's the child of God, like he is not just, you know, the second person of the Trinity.

He also is someone that was born into our world as an infant. Someone that experienced, you know, every stage of human development through childhood., and Janet argues that, you know, we need to be thinking of the second person of the Trinity as someone who is a child, someone that approaches our world, from this perspective of someone who is often vulnerable and dependent and that's very interesting when you look at the stories of different gods that were, had experiences as a child that Jesus' is very unique, in his vulnerability and defenselessness., you know, unlike other child gods, he doesn't have, you know, like, Krishna and Hinduism is born with like his full powers.

Like he can think as an adult, even though he's an infant, he can perform supernatural miracles as a little baby., but Jesus isn't like that. I mean, kind of the narrative of Jesus as a child, the whole thing, there's like danger hovering over the surface of everything like Jesus, is born in a manger.

You know, Jesus is followed by King Herod and, all these different things that put his life in danger. He is left alone in a temple by his parents for several days. Like all sorts of things could have gone wrong., and so Jesus has this very unique experience as, a divine being that not just experienced humanity, but experienced full childhood and, and kind of her most powerful point in her analysis Janet points out that it's not God, what we often term the Father, that is the one that ultimately judges humanity. The one that comes back, the Bible says with the sword, the one that separates, you know, the goats, and the sheep, the one that eventually assumes the power, in this future kingdom of God, it's actually Jesus.

And so it is the child, the child of God that ultimately is the one that has this power and authority. And, and so when we think about things like anger and judgment and justice and wrath, when we're thinking about God, so often we think of that as adult anger, adult wrath, adult justice. And actually, you know, it's the inverse.

It's the anger and justice and wrath and of, of Jesus who is the child. So, you know, as a progressive Christian, I don't have, strong feelings anymore about like, the existence of hell. But I think it's absolutely fascinating that these ideas and concepts are actually, we should be thinking 'em as from the perspective of the child.

Because it is ultimately in Jesus who experienced all these different childhood experiences. The one who identifies as a child, who identifies as someone who's vulnerable and dependent and says that his kingdom is, you know, belongs to the children. He's the one that is ultimately gonna be judging our adult abuses and sins.

Danny: Two things come to mind, just even that the, you know, scripture saying, father has given judgment to the son and even what, what the father would be saying to us and how to listen to the children and give that to our children as well in that space. So beautiful and challenging and freeing. And then also just, you know, three of us are on a streamy yard call on a Sunday morning.

, we've all suffered, we all, we have all been brought to this conversation through, our childhood and just even to hear the Christology that you are writing about and to think about what Jesus would carry when he would say, listen to the kids. And, yeah, just that you had to be able to ask Jesus what, what led to you saying that.

I think I, I received that a lot more in this, conversation.

Ryan: Yeah. I think that it's that phrase of like, that Jesus says that like his kingdom belongs to children. I think that it's something that we say so often. It's become such a cute slogan. Yeah. That we don't really think about like just how radical that is.

Going back to the end of our conversation of radical but not extreme. Like they, it's fascinating and powerful to me that Jesus says that his king, his kingdom belongs to children. It doesn't just exist to serve and support children. Like it's not a kingdom for children. I mean, it is, but it's not just that.

It's the kingdom of children. Like in this very real sense, like in the sense that is, that does seem so extreme in our world today, like Jesus is kind of saying like he's giving his keys to them. Like they are to be the ones in charge. Which we have just so little conception of how that would work, but that's really what he's saying.

Like it's, it's their kingdom., not just for them, but by them and of them,

Danny: I think about parenting or being a, you know, an elementary school teacher for, for 10, 11 years, the child's judgment is fairness, really. I mean, I, I think of every complaint that arose from a child, and it was, that's not fair.

, or even siblings, right? Like, that's not fair. And I, what a simple, maybe not easy, but a simple way to look at a judgment.

Ryan: Yeah.

Flo: I have one kind of practical, or, or one question I've been, I've been curious about, I, as we kind get close to wrapping up, I would love to know, so you were saying that you have gone into churches and seen a lot of different, programs and all kinds of things, but have you been part of a faith community or seen a faith community that is doing this work well and what does that look like? Or maybe they're trying?

Yes. Absolutely, I mean, absolutely. I think that, I mean there's I think, kind of two levels that people can approach this and I've seen like, you know, I see it most successfully when it comes to, like what Rebecca Stevens-Walter is doing with the intergenerational worship., I think that's a very kind of simple and accessible way to get started, to start thinking about how you can structure your services or sermons or worship time, whatever it may be, in a way that is accessible to everyone, including children that isn't, not just open to them, but that is engaging them. And I think that's where I see the most success so far, is churches and faith communities making these very conscious decisions to rearrange things and start thinking about the different ways that children can be participating.

There is a great book, children in the Worshiping Community, and that book is just, the whole thing is just a bunch of suggestions for ways to be including children more in services. Like I mentioned, a few of them in my book. But I mean, these are as simple as like, you know, a lot of church services make their print their, you know, sermon program and there's just a picture of the church on the front and they're like, why don't, why isn't that just a rotating picture of art that children are drawing during the sermon?

Like ask them to, while they're sitting and listening, ask them to think, draw something about what the sermon reminds them of, and then just put those on the sermon, programs each week. That's super simple. Like that doesn't require hardly any work at all., and then building up to, you know, letting children be a part of leading the worship services, like picking the songs.

You know, the children that are learning instruments. Let them be playing in the, you know, the worship team., and then I think the second area that I see success is in actually creating space for children to be leaders in different areas. I think this is also the most controversial idea. But I think it's something that, like the bulletin programs, you can start very small, like, this is something as simple as asking children how they experience the faith community or the church. Like making the conscious effort to get the children together. Ask them how they feel, how they feel, the different programs and curriculums, their experiences, how they treat them, how their teachers treat them, and then actually incorporating them deeper into that process.

, when you bring in a Sunday school teacher, or when you're trying to find a new one, make sure you're asking the children how they feel about that person. You know, it's not just something that adults should be interviewing for. It's something that children should be, but that doesn't mean that they get to just hire whoever they want.

They're my boss. I'm, I'm the children's pastor. I work for them. But like, I mean, really though,

Ryan: yeah, it, yeah, it's their educational ultimately. Yeah, totally. And so if you're hiring someone new, like get them involved in that process. And I see a lot of success there because that's something kinda small, but it also really gives children a sense of agency over what they're learning.

You know, when they're involved with that process, then they can give their feelings and their thoughts about it., if that, that process itself is very empowering and that's what I like to remind people about. Giving children leadership opportunities is that the, that's probably the best thing you can do for a child to empower them, is to give them those skills and tools to feel like they can be autonomous and make an impact on their community.

That can be very healing. It can develop some very important relationships and it can really help a child along. So I think that we're very scared of the idea of children as leaders. We think about like. I often hear like, would you just give kids like the codes to nuclear weapons? And I'm like,

Danny: I'm afraid we've done that.

Sorry, checkmate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

Ryan: But No, no, it's, but I mean, I think that's actually, that's a great example in the sense that like in, in the sense of like actually challenging that question itself because like there are also, there are many adults you would not want to give codes to. So it actually is not really anything to do with the childhood of that child.

It has to do with something else that is applicable to all people.

Flo: , there are children I would trust more Oh yeah. Most children. Exactly. I would trust more at the moment. So, yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. So, but yeah, so that, that leadership aspect I think is really important and I think that that is, that's something that like I have actually taken positively from my evangelical experience is like the leadership opportunities I had.

, there's this weird tension in evangelicalism, like, children are supposed to be very obedient and as submissive to adults, but at the same time we were supposed to be leaders of our peers. Like there's that verse like, don't let anyone look down upon you when you're young. That's an example.

And I think that, that's one thing that they actually have done really well is, it's to ends I don't agree with anymore, but they've figured out ways to, give children opportunities to kind of role play these, these adult roles. To kind of get leadership training and, learning how to, to network and how to, supervise a group, how to organize your peers.

Like they break those down into small pieces. And by the time children become 18, you know, for them, this is by the time those kids become 18, they're like very shrewd political operatives, and of course I think there's some plenty of things we could talk about, negative drawbacks there, but that aspect of helping children learn how to do these things and empowering to do, to do those things, that is I think a very important process.

I think that's why a lot of evangelical children, when they look back on their childhood, they will have some mixed feelings because they'll see these programs they were in, these activities that they did that were just so ideological and indoctrinating and abusive, but they also feel like they felt alive at the same time during those times.

And that's because they were in these situations with their peers where they were feeling empowered when at home they didn't feel that way. And so I think there is, there's something there that we can identify as that can be emulated in a way, in a different context that is, really good for children.

Danny: I don't know how to, that leads me into just, we, you know, there's, there's, there are all the obvious, predatory behaviors that all of our child safety training are geared around. You write about the protecting our kids from the predatory, culture of consumerism., can you speak to that just yeah, a bit, in that building off of what you just shared.

Ryan: Yeah, I think that, I mean, that tension I probably would say is most evident in like social media stay, like social media is so exploitive and predatory towards children. I think most everyone knows that like every day there's a social media company that's being sued for the way that they're just clearly unethically trying to manipulate and attract children to spend money that they shouldn't be spending to do things that they shouldn't be doing, to self harm.

All these kind of things like social media is absolutely like vampiric I guess, towards children. Like it, it is using them and exploiting them, but at the same time, like, like I grew up with the beginning of social media and social media for me was so important to learning that I was not alone in my experiences, that I was not crazy in the midst of these experiences.

To think that things weren't right, that I was experiencing harm, or that my friends were being abused. And social media is what you know, taught me a lot about like sex education, what, what different things mean, what was right, what was wrong., and it also let me network and create communities with my peers, that have helped me throughout my entire adult life to, process the things I experienced, to develop professional relationships, personal relationships, all these sorts of things.

And so you do see today a lot of moral panic about social media, and a lot of that is coming from the evangelical Christians. And I think that there are absolutely legitimate concerns about social media. And I think you'll see that across the political spectrum. But there is also this very significant moral panic from the evangelicals.

And I think that is less about their concerns about children being exploited because I see them doing nothing about exploitation around communities. I think it's more about they do understand that social media is something where children can become unisolated. And find community, find out they're not alone, they're not crazy.

And so that of course is very threatening. And so I think that especially is true when it comes to queer children. Like they,

Flo: Yes, yes. I was just thinking that.

Ryan: they're really trying to crack down so that queer children are not able to find the resources that they need online to connect with people to give them things they need.

Flo: which are lifesaving for them.

Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think that's, that's probably the best example of that tension is you see.

Danny: And I hear, you know, just in that, the connecting back to children in leadership, children in positions, sharing influence, power, it's in the social media context, like is it performative or is it communal?

And, and that maybe that is sort of a barometer and to not do any of these things as performance to get more kids in the children's ministry or whatever, but to do it so that, and which, which leads me to and Flo, I don't know if you have another, but I think maybe my last question is just, I love your insistence and advocacy for an open table and the sacraments being for, everyone God's table, not the children's table.

I love that sentence, yeah. Can you just share your convictions about an open table?

Ryan: Yeah. I think that. I mean, the very basic, basic essence of treating children as follow images of God is that, as we were talking about earlier, like they are not deficient humans. They're not adults to be, they're humans right now.

They are images of God right now., they have relationships with God right now. And so I think that they have every right to be involved in those relationships and that process. And I think that involves sacraments. And I think the sacraments, as I mentioned in the book, are just kind of perfect for children.

Like, especially when it comes to communion. Like it's something that they can see and touch and smell. It engages all the senses., and so these are things that really help children enter into those relationships in a personal way, like, I see the sacraments a lot along the lines of like, godly play.

Like it's one of those, things where they get to touch an object and then that object kind of transports them to their own reality and their own relationship and spirituality., I also think, of course, it's really important that that be something that children are engaging with on their own terms, of course with their own agency.

So like sacraments, when we do sacraments, like forcing children to do them, or, making it feel like children are making a commitment or being stuck to something that they didn't fully understand. Like I think we can run into some difficulties there. So just making sure that we, are involving children in those processes, in a way that they feel comfortable with, like on their own.

At their own pace and timing.

Flo: That makes me think about, we have a, a sweet child who was like in the moment, refused a baptism, was like, you are not putting water on me. And Danny was like, Nope. I'm not like, that's your agency. And but what's so precious is like, I was thinking about, I was thinking about her, her in a different context earlier.

She's a kiddo that we have, like, I have like a, I heard about the term, the prayground a few years ago where we have, like fidgets and manipulatives and, books and all kinds of stuff on carts, kind of in the front of the church so that our kids can sit in on the floor in the front if they want to.

And I have a tiny, tiny little, I just love miniature things, so I have a tiny Eucharist set and, the same child who was like, you are not sprinkling me., was she like, she loves to serve communion when Eucharist is happening., like a lot of times we start Eucharist and she's out there getting her little, like the little model wafers and all that, and coming in, serving that to adults in the pews.

Like she's, she's doing it like she's. And to see her just light up and know that that's something that is even possible. Like I never knew as a child, girl that this was like a pastor, a job as a pastor, that vocation was a possibility for me. And not that she's has to do that, probably would recommend against it, but, but she, but, but it's just beautiful to see, yeah, see them doing what they want to do on their own terms with their own agency, making their own decisions. And, it's, it's, it's beautiful and joyful to watch. It's absolutely, it's, it's amazing to me that that used to be a scary or threatening thing or is a scary and threatening thing in some context when it's so beautiful to see unfold.

Ryan: Yeah. I think what I hear most often is the objection to that is like, they don't, what if they don't like fully understand and

Flo: What if I don't fully understand?

Danny: Yeah, right.

Ryan: Exactly. I'm like, I dunno, like I feel like that's a bad standard because then none of us can, can participate because I feel like every few years I'm discovering something new, something that is changing my relationship with God and these practices.

And I, I think that's a good thing and a beautiful thing. And so like actually embracing that process, I mean, I think what children are is like a very distilled example of like processor becoming like, and they're just super open about it., not to veer off too strangely or into a different, religion, but I think of children as kind of like the perfect Taoist, like people who just yeah, go with the flow or the river, and just do things spontaneously.

And I also think that that is to, to their back, like part of playfulness and, part of that how children excel at play., they're able to be in the moment, be open to what's happening around them., and I think that that's, that is a very important position to approach life for life from, and that's one of the ways that children can be some of our most powerful teachers today.

Something that we can really learn from them about.

Danny: Which makes me wonder and think about that space of the God child being the judge and just the, I think I hear from the heart of God, from cover to cover don't objectify me and don't objectify others. That, that desire of a child that would say, don't, don't turn me into an object and take that agency, that being, that fullness, that wholeness away from me.

Ryan: Yeah.

Danny: Well, Ryan, thank you so much both for writing the book and for joining us today. It's really a delight to get to hear you expound more, on your work and to get to meet you.

Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah, this was a wonderful conversation.

I really enjoyed this.

Danny: Thank you. And we, we are new to this podcast space, but I have heard that many folks close with a how can people find you? Where would you like people?, I'm borrowing an ending here.

Ryan: Yes., my website is my author names, so that is rl stoller, S-T-O-L-L-A r.com. And then when you go to my website at the very top, there will be links to all my social media sites.

So that's probably the best way to find me on everything.

Flo: Yeah. And again, yeah, everyone, I mean, it's, it's, I just opened it. And this fell out. I'm, I'm, I've, it's well,

Ryan: I love that. I'm honored.

Flo: , yeah. Yes. Caregivers, ministry folks, like, just, this is so important and, and good and just wonderful work that you're doing.

And like we've talked about, it shouldn't, it shouldn't be radical, but it, it is still. So thank you for doing that work.

Ryan: You're very welcome. Yeah. Thanks for what you're doing too. Yeah.

Danny: And we can, we can edit this one out, but I just have a one true or false question.

Ryan: Yes.

Danny: True or false. Approved workmen are not ashamed.

Sorry.

Let the listeners understand.

Ryan: I would, I'm gonna go with false because as someone who was an approved workman, there was just so much shame. So there's, you know, there's this, there's just a lot of emphasis in, a lot of religious spaces about children not being good enough or like being broken or sinful like, and I know that was probably supposed to be, a funny question, but, okay. But, but this is actually, this is very real. Okay. So the, the Bible verse approved workmen are Not Ashamed, is also an acronym. So for those who are not familiar with it, it's the acronym for AWANA, which is a evangelical group for children where you learn Bible verses, you wear these uniforms, you like memorize Bible verses, and then as you memorize all these verses, you get like pins and badges and candy.

Flo: Yeah. You look like a boy scout or a girl scout. Yes. But it's not the same thing.

Ryan: Exactly. So I, I was really good at AWANA, I loved it because of the candy and, I'm a little intrigued. I mean, yeah, I think I was junior high, I was a part of their older kid program and they, they had a program called Leadership and training, or LIT.

So this is another example of like evangelicals doing the leadership training, very thoroughly. And part of that being a leader in training was teaching the younger kids the, through the books and memorizing the verses. And at one point I, part of the process was, you have to ask, it's evangelizing kids.

So like, yeah. Part of the actual program was asking children if they were saved and if they weren't then converting them. And I just remember like, this was the first time I'd ever actually like converted someone. And it, I was just like, in junior high and this kid was like, I don't know, six or seven and we were talking about the, the quote unquote gospel like, you've sinned. Like you should accept Jesus. And I remember like, he was like, like, how have I sinned? And like I, I remember being very speechless and just being like, well, hell, I have no, like, you're six. I don't know. I was like very stumped. I mean, I repeated the things I knew I was supposed to say, but in my heart I was like, none of this makes sense.

Like there's something really wrong with like, what? I'm like, I don't understand what I'm doing here. And I think that, you know, child liberation theology is seeing children as, you know, images of God. Like they're not broken images, you know, they are right now reflecting like, who God is,, what God desires, like they are humans.

So like adults, they're not perfect. But I, I still try to shy away from like referring to them as, as evil, like, because even humans do things that aren't quote unquote good, but aren't always evil either. Like in children we see that just in a more distilled level, like when children are hungry, they're gonna yell or cry.

That doesn't mean they're like more evil than adults who can handle their hunger more effectively. It just means that they haven't developed those parts of their prefrontal cortex yet., so it's, I think in my mind, really unfair to describe a lot of what they do as evil.

Danny: This sentence, yeah, I mean, just one of the, another sentence in your book that dysregulation is not a sin.

I was such a

Flo: Amen.

Danny: Beautiful observation. There's a, thank you for letting me ask a, a question. And I, I, I love children's spirituality. The tears and the laughter are, are always right there., so in that space, Jason Isabel is a favorite, singer songwriter of mine, and he has a song called White Beretta, but he says, we were,, something saved, something in the church, washed in the blood.

We were saved before we even left home., and just you think about those conversations with six year olds, and I mean, I think about my own understanding of what I was as a child because of not speaking in tongues or repenting or whatever, and just the freedom to move out of those spaces and to be lifelong learners and to remain children is a beautiful, beautiful thing., well, thank you Yeah. For letting me indulge that question.

Flo: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I feel like yeah. We should probably wrap up by reminding folks that this is R.L. Stoller author of The Kingdom of Children, A Liberation Theology, and it's just been wonderful to have you.

Thank you so much.

Ryan: You are very welcome. Yes, thank you.

Danny: Thank you for listening to another episode of Blessed Uncertainty. Special thanks to Kyle Lock for producing his brother Adam Lock for our logo and J Lind for our music.